I Got Bored On My Day off ............. - Page 2

mh2365 · 11-12-2005, 05:22 PM

Speaking of which Codrington was rated an 8 by Azza, maybe that ought to be rethought after his Michael Grantesque performance against green. Generally I like your ratings azza ... but and 8 for either Green or Codrington is abit absurd. Neither has fought anyone. I'd probably go with a pre-prime 6 for green and maybe a pre-prime 4 for Codrington.

But it's just my opinion and since I don't rate fighters Rock On

.

Although from reading alot of postings on various boards, maybe Codrington got KTFO in 18 seconds because it was getting heavy with all these fanboys swinging on his nuts.

AZZA · 11-12-2005, 06:33 PM

hindsight is a wonderful thing. the ratings are based on purely opinions, rating fighters at an early stage is always going to be hit and miss. but they are structured so you can tweak them in any direction. who is to say that it wasnt a freak loss for codrington? I rate the fighters abilities as i see them based on my knowledge and then press the calc button which decides the overall rating. i.e. 8 in greens case. but if you dont rate fighters you wouldn`t know that would you?

mh2365 · 11-12-2005, 08:25 PM

Wow okay reminder to self ... Azza doesn't like anyone to disagree with his ratings. Don't worry I won't ever give you any feedback again. Codrington rated an 8 prime he was just 9-0 is absurd, just like whoever rated Skelton a 10 or an 11, but whatever.

Learn to take someone's else opinion as just that an opinion. Also notice the freaking smiley faces, but of course if your one of those bobbing up and down on his nut sack then you wouldn't find it funny would you?

If everyone who rated fighters rated them based on their abilities against stiffs like Green and Codrington have faced then freaking Chavez Jr. would be a 15 wouldn't he. I didn't see one single thing in my post for you to get your panties in a bunch over but obviously you did. So sorry about that

dragon29 · 11-12-2005, 10:11 PM

I see creating fighters as an art form. Art is subjective, just like judging a round, or like judging an olympic diving competition. Those that do create the fighters (Azza, TB development team, David Myers, Icetea, etc.) have their own respective perspective on a given fighter. Someone might see a fight or seires of fights that others didn't see, signifying a certain subjective viewpoint. I happen to like and follow NY fighters. My view of Jaidon Codrington would be different than those that have less exposure to "The Don". Sure, he was knocked out but this is the game of boxing, constantly changing. Success and failure ride on one punch. Nobody knew that Wlad Klitschko would be put to sleep by Corrie Sanders when they were making TF2001. They just went on the moment. How is that fighter right at this moment? My point is, the Codrington stats seemed accurate at the time. Of course, his level of opposition was basically dead, but we have nothing else to go on except for the fact that he was a great amatuer fighter.

I personally don't create fighters. I've never been too good at the 2 and 3 point distribution part. So, when someone does create a fighter, I'm more than happy to interpret the stats as to how they would match what I know about the fighter. Thats why we have adjustable stats. We can change what we don't agree with to fit our own personl bias. I would rather have a fighter in my game than not have the fighter in my game.

sorry to ramble and thanks for listening...
dragon

mh2365 · 11-12-2005, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon29

I see creating fighters as an art form. Art is subjective, just like judging a round, or like judging an olympic diving competition. Those that do create the fighters (Azza, TB development team, David Myers, Icetea, etc.) have their own respective perspective on a given fighter. Someone might see a fight or seires of fights that others didn't see, signifying a certain subjective viewpoint. I happen to like and follow NY fighters. My view of Jaidon Codrington would be different than those that have less exposure to "The Don". Sure, he was knocked out but this is the game of boxing, constantly changing. Success and failure ride on one punch. Nobody knew that Wlad Klitschko would be put to sleep by Corrie Sanders when they were making TF2001. They just went on the moment. How is that fighter right at this moment? My point is, the Codrington stats seemed accurate at the time. Of course, his level of opposition was basically dead, but we have nothing else to go on except for the fact that he was a great amatuer fighter.

I personally don't create fighters. I've never been too good at the 2 and 3 point distribution part. So, when someone does create a fighter, I'm more than happy to interpret the stats as to how they would match what I know about the fighter. Thats why we have adjustable stats. We can change what we don't agree with to fit our own personl bias. I would rather have a fighter in my game than not have the fighter in my game.

sorry to ramble and thanks for listening...
dragon

I agree with you 100% but the thing is that you have to judge the level of competition. You can't just rate a guy great at 9-0. He just can't be a PRIME 8. He can be a pre prime 5 or 6. But when he has fought absolutely no one you just can't make him a very good fighter which a Prime 8 is. That was my whole point and Azza took it personally. Codrington was a great amateur, but you know what? So were thousands of other fighters who never panned out. The first time Codrington fought anyone of substance he got KTFO in 18 seconds. Green was the fighter who did that and despite that win, Green still hasn't fought anyone. All he did was KTFO a good amatuer in 18 seconds.

So in the game right now at SMW .... Lacy is a 7, so according to Azza Codrington and Green are better right now that Lacy. Robin Reid is a 6, Calzaghe is a 7, Kessler is a 7, Beyer is a 7. Of all the SMW rated in the game right now, 8 is tied for the second best SMW of all time. So Codrington who was 9-0 is the second best SMW of all time and could beat Lacy??????? Green who has fought absolutely no one is the second best SMW of all-time and could beat Calzaghe???????

So yeah I agree that ratings are subjective, but they have to have some relation to earth and the real world. Codrington and Green being rated a PRIME 8 is just pure fantasy. It's almost like making yourself in the game and giving yourself a great rating, it's not realistic. Anytime you make a prospect it is unrealistic, but when you do make them pre-prime and make them so they can't beat the best in the division until they prove themselves against top competition.

Several guys on this board do a great job at rating prospects and Azza is usually one, but when I pointed out 2 that were pure fanboy rating (in a nice and joking matter I might add) he got all upset note his "but if you dont rate fighters you wouldn`t know that would you?" comment at the end. I don't rate fighters because I don't have the patience to test them against all levels of competition like several people on this board do. I could just throw together a rating like Azza apparently did on these two and pass them off also but I would feel guilty doing so.

I have rated several fighters for my universe and as anyone can attest, if/when I post them it comes with several warnings that they are not tested or accurate at all. All I do is look at their record and decide what I feel they should be rated, so I warn people that is what I do.

The majority of people who post ratings on this board test them extensively, if Azza doesn't so that and only basis their ratings on how well he likes the guy then he should say so, or not get so defensive when someone calls him on it.

So my joking manner about it offended Azza and I am sorry about that, but does anyone on this board seriously think that Jaidon Codrington can beat Jeff Lacy????? If so could you please let me know who your dealer is because I would love to live in oblivion the way you are. Or at least try to justify it so I can have a great laugh at your expense.

SAL · 11-13-2005, 02:31 AM

I've been ringside at Green's last three bouts. He boxed very well in two of those bouts but his opponents in those bouts tried to hug him most of the night and didn't test Green's chin at all. As for the quick KO of Codrington, Green landed a left hook right to the windpipe and Codrington laid motionless in the ring for 30 minutes before being carried out on a stretcher.

Mudster · 11-13-2005, 04:16 AM

I'm just starting to try my luck at rating fighters, but I don't intend to place any on the boards until I feel they can give an accurate representation of what the fighter is all about. The aging part of the fighter is the trickiest part of rating for me. I feel if you make a young or old fighter with ratings of how they fight at the present, you need to give them a prime rating because otherwise they are fighting below the level you gave them. If you rate a fighter at what he was or may be when he hits his prime, then you can give a beginning or end or whatever aging stage for them, because that will hopefully adjust him down to where he is fighting at the moment. That is why I hate trying to rate prospects because it is all speculation and I tend to like fact. When it comes to other peoples ratings of fighters, I just find that some are good just as they are, while others need a little tweaking. I tend to tweak down a lot of fighters because the world of boxing is populated with mostly "1"s and that rating is generous. I don't like having a bunch of 4-7 rated fighters because it's just not realistic. Personally, if I dont' like someone elses ratings, I'll just either skip their downloads completely or tweak em down, but if they go through the effort of pulling out the names to start the file, I try to use them one way or another. Anyways...back to bed for me...sorry if I rambled.

Cap · 11-13-2005, 09:34 AM

I may be wrong, but I think I've only posted one fighter's ratings on this forum since its inception. Rating boxers is a very tricky business if you are really serious about it. Rating prospects is something I wouldn't even consider trying. It's probably worse than playing the stock market.

I rate fighters in a kind of haphazard fashion. The ones I know well I tinker with. Others I make up based on boxrec history and similar fighters in the game. They perform about the way I expect them to in my alternate universe.

I think I may have downloaded two or three ratings at most. I'd rather make my own mistakes, but encourage others to be as creative as they can. Have fun with TBCB. Its a game after all, not fine art or rocket science.

Cap

dragon29 · 11-13-2005, 10:41 AM

All excellent points........

Azza,
Have you looked into creating Stevens and/or Miller? Just wanted to make sure that the main point of this thread hasn't been lost. Thanks.

dragon

Ronnie · 11-13-2005, 01:25 PM

I must admit, I downloaded Azza's Codrington rating as I wanted the option to have him in my universe. I download quite a few of other people's created "current" fighters and may not always agree with the ratings. However I usually tweek them, and in Codrington's case I tweeked him down quite a bit. I still have to test him, but I'm grateful for Azza and everyone else who gives it a go at rating fighters.

I have only ever rated one fighter that I have uploaded (Cengiz Koc) probably because I don't understand the whole rating system and because of lack of time and a whole load of other excuses although I'm still happy with his overall rating of 4.

Rating propsects if alot harder than rating established fighters.

Could I suggest that anyone wanting to begin rating fighters start with opponent types ,where they are expected to loose to most of the fighers in the game. In this case it does'nt matter if they are too far out. I have considered this myself, but havn't got round to it yet.

CONN CHRIS · 11-13-2005, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Could I suggest that anyone wanting to begin rating fighters start with opponent types ,where they are expected to loose to most of the fighters in the game. In this case it doesn't matter if they are too far out. I have considered this myself, but haven't got round to it yet.

What a great idea! And as luck would have it, there are a boatload of fighters that fit that description over on the PWOF list (currently on page 112). The added bonus there is that you will have a photo of the fighter that you create. (It will be far more than a boatload in a few months - the pre-crash list was over 1,000 and that was before Romu's recent swarm)

Thanks for the ratings AZZA, people have said things about my ratings in the past and I generally just ask for some help from them in re-fining. (I even publicly beat the tar out one rating myself - it happened to be mine

- it was truly awful)

This is very subjective and even play testing doesn't remove that subjectivity. I test by running bouts against already rated opponents (100 each) and tweaking to get the 'right' percentage of wins, losses, stoppages, et cetera against each opponent. What's the 'right' percentage? Lots of room for debate there if the two only fought once; you have to speculate what 100 matches would look like between the two. David Meyers has a neat idea where he sims the number of fights that a boxer had in his career against the field and looks for a representative career W-L record. I haven't tried it yet but may.

The gold standard is the Trunzo's ratings and I have even seen debate over those (Please, no one bring up Joe Grimm again

)

Cap hit the home run here though, it's a game - have fun.

mh2365 · 11-13-2005, 02:17 PM

I just want to clarify one point .... I absolutely appreciate the majority of Azza's ratings and everyone else's also. That is part of what makes this board great.

When I don't agree with ratings I change them myself. My original point was made in jest but the point was still there. The ratings for those two fighters were way out of whack and also way out of character for Azza's normal ratings. Obviously I touched a nerve by pointing it out, so I apologize for yet the 3rd time.

Hopefully Azza keeps posting new ratings. Prospects I truely believe need to be rated on the side that they will never pan out because most don't. Samuel Peter was being hailed by everyone as the greatest thing ever, now he's a bum (instead of anyone giving Wlad credit for taking him apart).

IceTea · 11-13-2005, 02:38 PM

Let me get in on this. I most likely underrate fighters, with the exception of Frankie Liles (10) which I tweeked down from an (11); that is just my style. Here are some of the things I look for:

- Quality of fighters on record.
- KO or TKO wins against Quality Fighters
- Rounds faught per fight
- KO or TKO losses and who they were against
- I throw out the best fight and the worst fight and consider them outliers
- Titles won--means alot towards CF to me.
- title defenses (see frankie liles and his CF)
- quality of title defenses
- search for any articles on said fighter

Here is a list of the top 168 lb fighters, I don't agree with it, Frank Liles is too low but it is interesting.

http://www.maxboxing.com/Mulcahey/Mulcahey1109m05.asp

Jeff Lacy's streak of impressive knockouts has marked him as a brutal young force in the super middleweight division, which is something the weight class has lacked since the mid 1990's. Just as importantly, from a nationalistic standpoint, he is the first American to make a real impact at super middleweight since the days of James Toney and Roy Jones Jr. Yes, before that duo's waistlines were robbed by the heavyweight division, they were very good super middleweights. In fact, both rate in the top ten all-time for the division.

It is amazing just how dominant non-Americans (more specifically, Europeans) have been in this division. The only explanation has to be that the median weight for Europeans is 168 pounds. For more strangeness, you only have to look to the second champion at 168 pounds, who hailed from Korea. It is an oddity to see quality boxers from Asia above the 135 pound weight class, but one of the best 168 pounders ever was Asian. Want more international flavor? The first super middleweight champion came out of Canada, and eight American challengers were defeated before until Thomas Hearns won the vacant WBO version in 1988.

The super middleweight division was established in 1984 by the IBF, as a way for the new sanctioning body to make more money. However, to be fair, it is the one extra division outside of the original eight for whom a valid argument can be made. The divide between 160 and 175 was very large, unlike some of the other junior divisions, where only three or four pounds separate them. This assured that the division would not become a resting place for obese middleweights or bulimic light heavies. So without further ado, here are the ten best super middleweights of all-time...well....at least since 1984.

10. Michael Nunn (58-4) - A supremely gifted boxer who found his way into the super middleweight division through sheer laziness. First, a bit of history. He was a 36-0 middleweight with wins over Donald Curry, Marlon Starling, Iran Barkley, Frank Tate, Juan Roldan, and Sumbu Kalambay and was well on his way to outboxing James Toney when he relaxed and was kayoed by a Hail Mary Toney punch. Used the loss as an excuse to move up in weight, where he proceeded to win the title against Victor Cordoba. Nunn made four defenses, including two quality wins over tough guys Merqui Sosa and
Crawford Ashley before being outhustled by 21-13-2 Steve Little. Got another crack at the WBA super middleweight title and was again outworked, this time by Frankie Liles.
Considering the great skill set Nunn had, he should have never lost at middleweight, or super middleweight. Only complacency and a lack of fire (a bad decision to leave his trainer Joe Goossen was also to blame) kept Nunn from holding on to the title as long as he wanted. A true waste of talent who is currently rusting in prison (a 24 year stint) after being busted for Cocaine trafficking.

9. Frankie Liles (32-3) - Did not exactly burst onto the super middleweight scene by defeating Steve Little, one of the weakest world champions ever, over 12 rounds (in Argentina of all places). Liles did show good mental toughness by knocking out Steve Little, who had scored a unanimous decision win over Liles in his fourth title defense. I give Liles a lot of credit for being a true world traveler, defending his title in Ecuador, Germany, Argentina, and Puerto Rico. In all, Liles defended his WBA title seven times, with the best name on the resume being Michael Nunn, followed by Segundo Mercado and Andrej Shkalikov. Was way ahead on the scorecards when Byron Mitchell landed a punch out of nowhere to send Liles to the floor, and score a TKO on the three knockdown rule. The slick punching southpaw never recovered from the loss and only fought once more, losing via TKO to the average Demetrius Jenkins.

8. Chong Pal Park (46-5-1) - One of two Korean world super middleweight champions (the other was In Chul Baek whom Park lost to in his last fight), and the first dominant super middleweight champ. Park was a good boxer-puncher who could mix it up if he had to, but preferred to box from the outside if given the opportunity. Made eight defenses of the IBF title, and then dropped the title in order to fight for and win the WBA title. Park defended the WBA title once before hard hitting Venezuelan Fulgencio Obelmejias took his title via decision. One of the few Koreans to venture to America -
to fight Vinnie Curto in Los Angeles - and escape with a win. Also defeated all around boxer and former champion Lindell Holmes twice, as well as natural light heavyweight
Murray Sutherland. A good test for anyone at super middleweight.

7. Nigel Benn (42-5-1) - It is hard to think of a more exciting European fighter from the late 1980's to the late 1990's. Benn's first 23 fights ended in a kayo...one way or the other. He truly earned the nickname 'The Dark Destroyer'. Made nine defenses of the WBC title, including his legendary tilt against Gerald McClellan in which Benn showed valor beyond the the call of duty by climbing back into the ring he had been knocked out of! A lack of other credible challengers, outside of Eubank, does hurt Benn's standing, but he makes up for it in terms of fan appeal. Also has a good body of work at middleweight, including a first round kayo of the usually durable Iran Barkley. On the top of many fight fans’ wish lists for the late 1990's was Benn vs. Jones...it never happened either.

6. James Toney - This was the second of four weight divisions that Toney ate his way out of. Won the IBF version by impressively knocking out Iran Barkley, but only made four
defenses. However, Toney should be given credit for keeping busy by contesting seven non-title bouts at super middleweight, including bouts against good names like Glenn Thomas and Anthony Hembrick. Best win at the weight came with an eye opening
knockout of former light heavyweight champion Prince Charles Williams, stealing the show from The Golden Boy (De La Hoya scored a dubious looking, but legit kayo
of Jorge Paez) in Las Vegas. Of course, Toney's worst loss, a twelve round decision against Roy Jones, famously came at super middleweight as well. Overall, a good reign in which he handed Tim Littles his first pro defeat and also outboxed Tony Thornton.

5. Chris Eubank (45-5-2) - His nickname was "Simply The Best", and he was not that far away from being the best ever at super middle. I still maintain that during Roy Jones'
prime years, Eubank was the only fighter who would have had a chance to defeat Jones... or RJ for that matter. ‘Quirky’ would be the best word used to describe Eubank's behavior in and out of the ring. Sadly, Eubank lost much of his aggression, and killer instinct after his fight with Michael Watson, who nearly died of brain injuries suffered during their bout. Eubank often talked of his love/hate affair with boxing, and it is a shame he could never really totally commit himself to the sport mentally. Even so, he reeled off 14 defenses of the WBO title, and some believe he should have won the WBC version, but had to settle for a draw against rival Nigel Benn. An up and down fighter who had a tendency to fight up, or down, to the level of his opposition, which usually made for interesting viewing.

4. Roy Jones Jr. (49-4) - This was the division in which Roy Jones should have cemented his legacy as one of the greatest fighters of all time. But his refusal to travel overseas (that is where the big money was to be made) to fight Eubank, Benn, or Collins really hurt his reputation. There were no excuses, since economics dictated that this is where the money was to be made, and none of the fighters were under the control of Don King. It is also where the 'Reluctant Roy' tag was first generated. On the positive side, Roy dominated James Toney at super middle, in his debut no less, and made five defenses of the title. Another positive is that all his title defenses came via knockout, to include Vinny Pazienza, tough as nails Merqui Sosa, and the underrated Eric Lucas. Probably could have stayed at super middle longer, but his two year reign ran out of North American opponents.

3. Steve Collins (36-3) - Yet another European that Roy Jones refused to travel and fight, even though he would have been favored to win. Gets massive credit from this writer for twice besting Chris Eubank and Nigel Benn at super middle. Granted, both were nearing the end of their careers, but so was Collins! Also let's not forget that he retired as a champion, undefeated in his last fifteen fights, of which eight were title defenses. In fact, he never lost at super middle. The only man to ever outclass him was a prime Mike McCallum, and his other two decision losses were of the majority version on foreign
shores. Never dazzled in any skills department, but always gave 100% and forced his opponents into brawls. First fight with Eubank was a classic, and was generally in
fun tilts. The epitome of a hard headed Irishman.

2. Sven Ottke (34-0) - As anyone who has ever argued with a Rocky Marciano fan will attest to, it is hard to argue against perfection. Yeah, Ottke had less power than a Geo Metro (only six career kayos), but he was one heck of a smart boxer who might have been the best judge of distance from 1998 to 2004. Let's not forget that the one time he really needed to show stopping power, when he was behind against Anthony Mundine, he unleashed a right hand that knocked Mundine unconscious. Has a division record 21 title defenses, and also annexed the WBA title and defended that title four times. Sure there were some controversial decisions that went in his favor (heck his title winning effort against Charles Brewer was close), but name a champion who reigned for six years who did not have any close decisions go his way.

1. Joe Calzaghe (40-0) - His career seems cursed by injury and poor timing, which has caused big fights to fall out on numerous occasions. A superb boxer, whose only real rival during his prime was German Sven Ottke. And one has the feeling that Calzaghe's edge in power could have been the deciding factor in that mythical matchup. Too bad he never got a chance to face Steve Collins, whose vacated title he won. Just another case of a missed opportunity I suppose, and he has otherwise done his best to get credible opposition in the ring. As of now, he is only four fights away from matching Ottke's record of 21 title defenses. At age 32, he should be able to equal that mark if he can get past the big test that Jeff Lacy represents. Has beaten a good caliber of challengers, so a Lacy win is not as automatic as many American fans might wish it to be. Calzaghe has a healthy ego as well, so I hope that fight does come off. Calzaghe's run of bad luck in getting American opposition into the ring seems to play against those odds however.

AZZA · 11-13-2005, 03:21 PM

i had spent a whole day rating testing and uploading them, and was a bit overeactive to the negative comments , especialy when he admitted he doesnt rate fighters........ but you know i was just trying to get that list down....... the problem could be that i re rate fighters in my universe at the end of every year and retire some fighters aswell. so codrington-green would have only fought say 4 fights against fighters rated 1-4 which given there 8 raing more than likely would have won. i then would re adjust thier ratings acording to ther real life development. so my universe runs a little bit different and i can see that it could be a problem to someone else..... For those of you who dont rate fighters get suck in and help out if your not briiliant dont worry we can always tweak them, which is precisely my point...........

good to see the forum get there teeth into this ......
oh and by the way

IceTea · 11-13-2005, 03:55 PM

I thank everyone that posts files and photos to the forum, it makes the game more enjoyable. That said, you have to expect some comments. Some commented on my Heavyweight Billy Conn rating about 6 months ago and I simply explianed why I gave him a (1) KDR1 rating and forgot about it.

I would rate Green at about a weak (6), if that and Codrington around a (3); he (Codrington) will never recover from such a KO loss...see Anthony Hembrick after this loss to Booker T. Ward. He won a some bouts after that, but when he stepped up against even 2 (Sedillo) and 3 (Barber) rated fighters he didn't fair well. He got a shot at Maske only because he was an ex-olypian and Condrington isn't even that. I remember him from amatuer competions and in my opinion he is a bad guy and his leaches/hangers-on are even worse and demonstrated by their actions after Codrington was KO'd in 18 seconds.

Green will have to step-up in class because most pre-prime types will not fight him. Codrington will be forced to build his confidence on ordinary fighters who will be looking to land a shot on his now questionalbe chin...see Big John Tate after his KO loss to Mike Weaver. A chin doesn't get better, only worse. Codrington should NEVER fight Green again.

Thunder · 11-15-2005, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZZA

iFor those of you who dont rate fighters get suck in and help out if your not briiliant dont worry we can always tweak them, which is precisely my point...........

good to see the forum get there teeth into this

Title Bout download: $30
CD Backup: $10
The Message Board: Priceless

bear · 09-19-2006, 07:16 PM

bump

bear

CONN CHRIS · 12-18-2006, 01:01 PM

************************************************** **

All the photos in this thread prior to this post have been re-filed in the photos forum.

If you post a new photo here, please be sure to post a duplicate in the proper folder (by decade of debut) over there as well. This way, future and current board members will be able to more easily locate the photo that you made an effort to find and re-size.

Thank you!
************************************************** **

11-12-2005, 06:33 PM	#22
AZZA Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: london Posts: 460	hindsight hindsight is a wonderful thing. the ratings are based on purely opinions, rating fighters at an early stage is always going to be hit and miss. but they are structured so you can tweak them in any direction. who is to say that it wasnt a freak loss for codrington? I rate the fighters abilities as i see them based on my knowledge and then press the calc button which decides the overall rating. i.e. 8 in greens case. but if you dont rate fighters you wouldn`t know that would you?

11-13-2005, 09:34 AM	#28
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,776 Blog Entries: 4	I may be wrong, but I think I've only posted one fighter's ratings on this forum since its inception. Rating boxers is a very tricky business if you are really serious about it. Rating prospects is something I wouldn't even consider trying. It's probably worse than playing the stock market. I rate fighters in a kind of haphazard fashion. The ones I know well I tinker with. Others I make up based on boxrec history and similar fighters in the game. They perform about the way I expect them to in my alternate universe. I think I may have downloaded two or three ratings at most. I'd rather make my own mistakes, but encourage others to be as creative as they can. Have fun with TBCB. Its a game after all, not fine art or rocket science. Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."

11-13-2005, 02:38 PM	#33
IceTea Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Sherrill, NY Posts: 9,767	Let me get in on this. I most likely underrate fighters, with the exception of Frankie Liles (10) which I tweeked down from an (11); that is just my style. Here are some of the things I look for: - Quality of fighters on record. - KO or TKO wins against Quality Fighters - Rounds faught per fight - KO or TKO losses and who they were against - I throw out the best fight and the worst fight and consider them outliers - Titles won--means alot towards CF to me. - title defenses (see frankie liles and his CF) - quality of title defenses - search for any articles on said fighter Here is a list of the top 168 lb fighters, I don't agree with it, Frank Liles is too low but it is interesting. http://www.maxboxing.com/Mulcahey/Mulcahey1109m05.asp Jeff Lacy's streak of impressive knockouts has marked him as a brutal young force in the super middleweight division, which is something the weight class has lacked since the mid 1990's. Just as importantly, from a nationalistic standpoint, he is the first American to make a real impact at super middleweight since the days of James Toney and Roy Jones Jr. Yes, before that duo's waistlines were robbed by the heavyweight division, they were very good super middleweights. In fact, both rate in the top ten all-time for the division. It is amazing just how dominant non-Americans (more specifically, Europeans) have been in this division. The only explanation has to be that the median weight for Europeans is 168 pounds. For more strangeness, you only have to look to the second champion at 168 pounds, who hailed from Korea. It is an oddity to see quality boxers from Asia above the 135 pound weight class, but one of the best 168 pounders ever was Asian. Want more international flavor? The first super middleweight champion came out of Canada, and eight American challengers were defeated before until Thomas Hearns won the vacant WBO version in 1988. The super middleweight division was established in 1984 by the IBF, as a way for the new sanctioning body to make more money. However, to be fair, it is the one extra division outside of the original eight for whom a valid argument can be made. The divide between 160 and 175 was very large, unlike some of the other junior divisions, where only three or four pounds separate them. This assured that the division would not become a resting place for obese middleweights or bulimic light heavies. So without further ado, here are the ten best super middleweights of all-time...well....at least since 1984. 10. Michael Nunn (58-4) - A supremely gifted boxer who found his way into the super middleweight division through sheer laziness. First, a bit of history. He was a 36-0 middleweight with wins over Donald Curry, Marlon Starling, Iran Barkley, Frank Tate, Juan Roldan, and Sumbu Kalambay and was well on his way to outboxing James Toney when he relaxed and was kayoed by a Hail Mary Toney punch. Used the loss as an excuse to move up in weight, where he proceeded to win the title against Victor Cordoba. Nunn made four defenses, including two quality wins over tough guys Merqui Sosa and Crawford Ashley before being outhustled by 21-13-2 Steve Little. Got another crack at the WBA super middleweight title and was again outworked, this time by Frankie Liles. Considering the great skill set Nunn had, he should have never lost at middleweight, or super middleweight. Only complacency and a lack of fire (a bad decision to leave his trainer Joe Goossen was also to blame) kept Nunn from holding on to the title as long as he wanted. A true waste of talent who is currently rusting in prison (a 24 year stint) after being busted for Cocaine trafficking. 9. Frankie Liles (32-3) - Did not exactly burst onto the super middleweight scene by defeating Steve Little, one of the weakest world champions ever, over 12 rounds (in Argentina of all places). Liles did show good mental toughness by knocking out Steve Little, who had scored a unanimous decision win over Liles in his fourth title defense. I give Liles a lot of credit for being a true world traveler, defending his title in Ecuador, Germany, Argentina, and Puerto Rico. In all, Liles defended his WBA title seven times, with the best name on the resume being Michael Nunn, followed by Segundo Mercado and Andrej Shkalikov. Was way ahead on the scorecards when Byron Mitchell landed a punch out of nowhere to send Liles to the floor, and score a TKO on the three knockdown rule. The slick punching southpaw never recovered from the loss and only fought once more, losing via TKO to the average Demetrius Jenkins. 8. Chong Pal Park (46-5-1) - One of two Korean world super middleweight champions (the other was In Chul Baek whom Park lost to in his last fight), and the first dominant super middleweight champ. Park was a good boxer-puncher who could mix it up if he had to, but preferred to box from the outside if given the opportunity. Made eight defenses of the IBF title, and then dropped the title in order to fight for and win the WBA title. Park defended the WBA title once before hard hitting Venezuelan Fulgencio Obelmejias took his title via decision. One of the few Koreans to venture to America - to fight Vinnie Curto in Los Angeles - and escape with a win. Also defeated all around boxer and former champion Lindell Holmes twice, as well as natural light heavyweight Murray Sutherland. A good test for anyone at super middleweight. 7. Nigel Benn (42-5-1) - It is hard to think of a more exciting European fighter from the late 1980's to the late 1990's. Benn's first 23 fights ended in a kayo...one way or the other. He truly earned the nickname 'The Dark Destroyer'. Made nine defenses of the WBC title, including his legendary tilt against Gerald McClellan in which Benn showed valor beyond the the call of duty by climbing back into the ring he had been knocked out of! A lack of other credible challengers, outside of Eubank, does hurt Benn's standing, but he makes up for it in terms of fan appeal. Also has a good body of work at middleweight, including a first round kayo of the usually durable Iran Barkley. On the top of many fight fans’ wish lists for the late 1990's was Benn vs. Jones...it never happened either. 6. James Toney - This was the second of four weight divisions that Toney ate his way out of. Won the IBF version by impressively knocking out Iran Barkley, but only made four defenses. However, Toney should be given credit for keeping busy by contesting seven non-title bouts at super middleweight, including bouts against good names like Glenn Thomas and Anthony Hembrick. Best win at the weight came with an eye opening knockout of former light heavyweight champion Prince Charles Williams, stealing the show from The Golden Boy (De La Hoya scored a dubious looking, but legit kayo of Jorge Paez) in Las Vegas. Of course, Toney's worst loss, a twelve round decision against Roy Jones, famously came at super middleweight as well. Overall, a good reign in which he handed Tim Littles his first pro defeat and also outboxed Tony Thornton. 5. Chris Eubank (45-5-2) - His nickname was "Simply The Best", and he was not that far away from being the best ever at super middle. I still maintain that during Roy Jones' prime years, Eubank was the only fighter who would have had a chance to defeat Jones... or RJ for that matter. ‘Quirky’ would be the best word used to describe Eubank's behavior in and out of the ring. Sadly, Eubank lost much of his aggression, and killer instinct after his fight with Michael Watson, who nearly died of brain injuries suffered during their bout. Eubank often talked of his love/hate affair with boxing, and it is a shame he could never really totally commit himself to the sport mentally. Even so, he reeled off 14 defenses of the WBO title, and some believe he should have won the WBC version, but had to settle for a draw against rival Nigel Benn. An up and down fighter who had a tendency to fight up, or down, to the level of his opposition, which usually made for interesting viewing. 4. Roy Jones Jr. (49-4) - This was the division in which Roy Jones should have cemented his legacy as one of the greatest fighters of all time. But his refusal to travel overseas (that is where the big money was to be made) to fight Eubank, Benn, or Collins really hurt his reputation. There were no excuses, since economics dictated that this is where the money was to be made, and none of the fighters were under the control of Don King. It is also where the 'Reluctant Roy' tag was first generated. On the positive side, Roy dominated James Toney at super middle, in his debut no less, and made five defenses of the title. Another positive is that all his title defenses came via knockout, to include Vinny Pazienza, tough as nails Merqui Sosa, and the underrated Eric Lucas. Probably could have stayed at super middle longer, but his two year reign ran out of North American opponents. 3. Steve Collins (36-3) - Yet another European that Roy Jones refused to travel and fight, even though he would have been favored to win. Gets massive credit from this writer for twice besting Chris Eubank and Nigel Benn at super middle. Granted, both were nearing the end of their careers, but so was Collins! Also let's not forget that he retired as a champion, undefeated in his last fifteen fights, of which eight were title defenses. In fact, he never lost at super middle. The only man to ever outclass him was a prime Mike McCallum, and his other two decision losses were of the majority version on foreign shores. Never dazzled in any skills department, but always gave 100% and forced his opponents into brawls. First fight with Eubank was a classic, and was generally in fun tilts. The epitome of a hard headed Irishman. 2. Sven Ottke (34-0) - As anyone who has ever argued with a Rocky Marciano fan will attest to, it is hard to argue against perfection. Yeah, Ottke had less power than a Geo Metro (only six career kayos), but he was one heck of a smart boxer who might have been the best judge of distance from 1998 to 2004. Let's not forget that the one time he really needed to show stopping power, when he was behind against Anthony Mundine, he unleashed a right hand that knocked Mundine unconscious. Has a division record 21 title defenses, and also annexed the WBA title and defended that title four times. Sure there were some controversial decisions that went in his favor (heck his title winning effort against Charles Brewer was close), but name a champion who reigned for six years who did not have any close decisions go his way. 1. Joe Calzaghe (40-0) - His career seems cursed by injury and poor timing, which has caused big fights to fall out on numerous occasions. A superb boxer, whose only real rival during his prime was German Sven Ottke. And one has the feeling that Calzaghe's edge in power could have been the deciding factor in that mythical matchup. Too bad he never got a chance to face Steve Collins, whose vacated title he won. Just another case of a missed opportunity I suppose, and he has otherwise done his best to get credible opposition in the ring. As of now, he is only four fights away from matching Ottke's record of 21 title defenses. At age 32, he should be able to equal that mark if he can get past the big test that Jeff Lacy represents. Has beaten a good caliber of challengers, so a Lacy win is not as automatic as many American fans might wish it to be. Calzaghe has a healthy ego as well, so I hope that fight does come off. Calzaghe's run of bad luck in getting American opposition into the ring seems to play against those odds however. __________________ Don't worry, be happy! Women's Boxing Cyber Boxing Zone Philadelphia Boxing Boxrec Ross Boxing https://boxingjones.com/ Last edited by IceTea; 11-13-2005 at 02:41 PM.

11-13-2005, 03:21 PM	#34
AZZA Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: london Posts: 460	good to get the forum active i had spent a whole day rating testing and uploading them, and was a bit overeactive to the negative comments , especialy when he admitted he doesnt rate fighters........ but you know i was just trying to get that list down....... the problem could be that i re rate fighters in my universe at the end of every year and retire some fighters aswell. so codrington-green would have only fought say 4 fights against fighters rated 1-4 which given there 8 raing more than likely would have won. i then would re adjust thier ratings acording to ther real life development. so my universe runs a little bit different and i can see that it could be a problem to someone else..... For those of you who dont rate fighters get suck in and help out if your not briiliant dont worry we can always tweak them, which is precisely my point........... good to see the forum get there teeth into this ...... oh and by the way

11-13-2005, 03:55 PM	#35
IceTea Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Sherrill, NY Posts: 9,767	I thank everyone that posts files and photos to the forum, it makes the game more enjoyable. That said, you have to expect some comments. Some commented on my Heavyweight Billy Conn rating about 6 months ago and I simply explianed why I gave him a (1) KDR1 rating and forgot about it. I would rate Green at about a weak (6), if that and Codrington around a (3); he (Codrington) will never recover from such a KO loss...see Anthony Hembrick after this loss to Booker T. Ward. He won a some bouts after that, but when he stepped up against even 2 (Sedillo) and 3 (Barber) rated fighters he didn't fair well. He got a shot at Maske only because he was an ex-olypian and Condrington isn't even that. I remember him from amatuer competions and in my opinion he is a bad guy and his leaches/hangers-on are even worse and demonstrated by their actions after Codrington was KO'd in 18 seconds. Green will have to step-up in class because most pre-prime types will not fight him. Codrington will be forced to build his confidence on ordinary fighters who will be looking to land a shot on his now questionalbe chin...see Big John Tate after his KO loss to Mike Weaver. A chin doesn't get better, only worse. Codrington should NEVER fight Green again. __________________ Don't worry, be happy! Women's Boxing Cyber Boxing Zone Philadelphia Boxing Boxrec Ross Boxing https://boxingjones.com/

11-12-2005, 05:22 PM	#21
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	Speaking of which Codrington was rated an 8 by Azza, maybe that ought to be rethought after his Michael Grantesque performance against green. Generally I like your ratings azza ... but and 8 for either Green or Codrington is abit absurd. Neither has fought anyone. I'd probably go with a pre-prime 6 for green and maybe a pre-prime 4 for Codrington. But it's just my opinion and since I don't rate fighters Rock On . Although from reading alot of postings on various boards, maybe Codrington got KTFO in 18 seconds because it was getting heavy with all these fanboys swinging on his nuts.

11-12-2005, 08:25 PM	#23
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	Wow okay reminder to self ... Azza doesn't like anyone to disagree with his ratings. Don't worry I won't ever give you any feedback again. Codrington rated an 8 prime he was just 9-0 is absurd, just like whoever rated Skelton a 10 or an 11, but whatever. Learn to take someone's else opinion as just that an opinion. Also notice the freaking smiley faces, but of course if your one of those bobbing up and down on his nut sack then you wouldn't find it funny would you? If everyone who rated fighters rated them based on their abilities against stiffs like Green and Codrington have faced then freaking Chavez Jr. would be a 15 wouldn't he. I didn't see one single thing in my post for you to get your panties in a bunch over but obviously you did. So sorry about that

11-12-2005, 10:11 PM	#24
dragon29 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 242	I see creating fighters as an art form. Art is subjective, just like judging a round, or like judging an olympic diving competition. Those that do create the fighters (Azza, TB development team, David Myers, Icetea, etc.) have their own respective perspective on a given fighter. Someone might see a fight or seires of fights that others didn't see, signifying a certain subjective viewpoint. I happen to like and follow NY fighters. My view of Jaidon Codrington would be different than those that have less exposure to "The Don". Sure, he was knocked out but this is the game of boxing, constantly changing. Success and failure ride on one punch. Nobody knew that Wlad Klitschko would be put to sleep by Corrie Sanders when they were making TF2001. They just went on the moment. How is that fighter right at this moment? My point is, the Codrington stats seemed accurate at the time. Of course, his level of opposition was basically dead, but we have nothing else to go on except for the fact that he was a great amatuer fighter. I personally don't create fighters. I've never been too good at the 2 and 3 point distribution part. So, when someone does create a fighter, I'm more than happy to interpret the stats as to how they would match what I know about the fighter. Thats why we have adjustable stats. We can change what we don't agree with to fit our own personl bias. I would rather have a fighter in my game than not have the fighter in my game. sorry to ramble and thanks for listening... dragon

11-13-2005, 02:31 AM	#26
SAL Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Joplin MO Posts: 5,732	I've been ringside at Green's last three bouts. He boxed very well in two of those bouts but his opponents in those bouts tried to hug him most of the night and didn't test Green's chin at all. As for the quick KO of Codrington, Green landed a left hook right to the windpipe and Codrington laid motionless in the ring for 30 minutes before being carried out on a stretcher.

11-13-2005, 04:16 AM	#27
Mudster Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 311	I'm just starting to try my luck at rating fighters, but I don't intend to place any on the boards until I feel they can give an accurate representation of what the fighter is all about. The aging part of the fighter is the trickiest part of rating for me. I feel if you make a young or old fighter with ratings of how they fight at the present, you need to give them a prime rating because otherwise they are fighting below the level you gave them. If you rate a fighter at what he was or may be when he hits his prime, then you can give a beginning or end or whatever aging stage for them, because that will hopefully adjust him down to where he is fighting at the moment. That is why I hate trying to rate prospects because it is all speculation and I tend to like fact. When it comes to other peoples ratings of fighters, I just find that some are good just as they are, while others need a little tweaking. I tend to tweak down a lot of fighters because the world of boxing is populated with mostly "1"s and that rating is generous. I don't like having a bunch of 4-7 rated fighters because it's just not realistic. Personally, if I dont' like someone elses ratings, I'll just either skip their downloads completely or tweak em down, but if they go through the effort of pulling out the names to start the file, I try to use them one way or another. Anyways...back to bed for me...sorry if I rambled.

11-13-2005, 10:41 AM	#29
dragon29 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 242	All excellent points........ Azza, Have you looked into creating Stevens and/or Miller? Just wanted to make sure that the main point of this thread hasn't been lost. Thanks. dragon

11-13-2005, 01:25 PM	#30
Ronnie Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Inverness Scotland Posts: 52	I must admit, I downloaded Azza's Codrington rating as I wanted the option to have him in my universe. I download quite a few of other people's created "current" fighters and may not always agree with the ratings. However I usually tweek them, and in Codrington's case I tweeked him down quite a bit. I still have to test him, but I'm grateful for Azza and everyone else who gives it a go at rating fighters. I have only ever rated one fighter that I have uploaded (Cengiz Koc) probably because I don't understand the whole rating system and because of lack of time and a whole load of other excuses although I'm still happy with his overall rating of 4. Rating propsects if alot harder than rating established fighters. Could I suggest that anyone wanting to begin rating fighters start with opponent types ,where they are expected to loose to most of the fighers in the game. In this case it does'nt matter if they are too far out. I have considered this myself, but havn't got round to it yet.

11-13-2005, 02:17 PM	#32
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	I just want to clarify one point .... I absolutely appreciate the majority of Azza's ratings and everyone else's also. That is part of what makes this board great. When I don't agree with ratings I change them myself. My original point was made in jest but the point was still there. The ratings for those two fighters were way out of whack and also way out of character for Azza's normal ratings. Obviously I touched a nerve by pointing it out, so I apologize for yet the 3rd time. Hopefully Azza keeps posting new ratings. Prospects I truely believe need to be rated on the side that they will never pan out because most don't. Samuel Peter was being hailed by everyone as the greatest thing ever, now he's a bum (instead of anyone giving Wlad credit for taking him apart).

09-19-2006, 07:16 PM	#37
bear Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chicago Posts: 18,798	bump bear

12-18-2006, 01:01 PM	#38
CONN CHRIS Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 28,366	************************************************ All the photos in this thread prior to this post have been re-filed in the photos forum. If you post a new photo here, please be sure to post a duplicate in the proper folder (by decade of debut) over there as well. This way, future and current board members will be able to more easily locate the photo that you made an effort to find and re-size. Thank you! ************************************************ <!-- / message --><!-- sig --> __________________ Check Out My Cards!