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Old 09-22-2019, 06:28 PM   #1
One Great Matrix
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C'mon Gehrig!

.271/.367/.464 with 183 Ks a season.

Gehrig in prime of his career:
.352/.454/.664 with 58 Ks a season

This is his peak card.

I needed to blow a little steam off after my 10th premature exit from Perfect playoffs.

I had the same problem with Shoeless Joe Jackson regarding Ks.

I think the avoid K rating is adjusted down to adjust for modern pitching. However...in Perfect Team, players face these modern pitchers most of the time; some of the best strikeout pitchers that have ever lived. That it seems would be enough of an adjustment to their overall numbers, agree?

Gwynn strikes out about twice as much at Perfect League level but it's his MLB 20 K a year to enhanced pitching performance in Perfect 40 K a year.

So the adjustment kind of takes care of itself when the match-ups come up.

I could talk a little more about this but understand I know it's a difficult task but at the same time noticed that if you do not adjust the ratings of the players from their raw RL stats ( & a touch how they performed relative to their peers) in a given season that all these time-and-space-defying match-ups in PT would take care of the difference we're looking for in statistical outcome.
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Old 09-22-2019, 10:40 PM   #2
dkgo
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Ratings are always relative. Back then the average team struck out just over 3 times per game. Today its 8.5. His 58 strikeouts per game back then is equivalent to a player with nearly 200 now.

Gehrig regularly was in the top ten for most strikeouts. Hence low Avoid K is appropriate.

How can we be this late into the game and people still dont know how ratings work.

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Old 09-22-2019, 10:48 PM   #3
One Great Matrix
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He never even struck out 100 times in a season.

Why would he strike out 189 times on average?

I know how ratings work, I see them with other players.

From my personal point of view most of them work great.

Some people like their virtual cards in mint condition.

It bugs me, though, when one of my players stats don't seem to make sense. How can you say looking at the numbers I've provided that Gehrig's make a lot of sense?

Obviously there are ratings and match-ups but these are at least a bit skewed. He's striking out 3x as often as he ever did in the Majors.

Many of today's sluggers are all-or-nothing, & management has generally come to accept strikeouts as not much worse than an out whereas they used to stress making contact. So this does not change the fact that Gehrig consistently made contact when he was at the plate.

He's #5 all-time in OBP at .447 ...his OBP is about .020 better than my team's. I only have, well I don't have any historically speaking, hitters on my team as great as him. That's all.
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Old 09-22-2019, 11:47 PM   #4
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He never even struck out 100 times in a season.

Why would he strike out 189 times on average?
dkgo answered your question--to reiterate, ratings are relative. Strikeouts were rarer in Gehrig's era--for his time, he was bad at avoiding K's. It would make no sense if OOTP relied on absolute strikeout totals.
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Old 09-23-2019, 12:01 AM   #5
One Great Matrix
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From 1932-1937 Gehrig struck out a total of 244 times in 4177 plate appearances.

It wasn't a question.

At the beginning of his career his strikeout rate was a LITTLE high.

What would make sense is that if they did choose to go by absolute totals, in PT play, they would become relative. Example: You could counteract a N Ryan with a deadball era guy. You wouldn't be able to find nearly as many players from his era (like Gwynn) that would have 19-20 avoid K ratings.

I don't think that would make any more sense than what is currently in place but in the 2 cases I mention, and really you don't have to worry about it much, the players ratings are off.
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Old 09-23-2019, 12:57 AM   #6
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It's true ratings are relative, but in the past we've proven that Shoeless Joe's PEAK Avoid K rating was incorrect. Like, inarguably false. They said they'll look at how they extract the ratings for OOTP21, so here's hoping.

I'm not sure about Gehrig but I'll give OGM the benefit of the doubt. It appears his real-life BB/K ratio in his later career was pretty good.

I've seen cards that get totally crippled in Perfect Team from a low Avoid K rating, so it's important to get this right in the future.
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Old 09-23-2019, 04:38 AM   #7
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I have long been curious how Gehrig's Peak card can carry an Avoid K rating that is significantly lower than at least one of his other cards. His 96 OVR 1934 All Star card has Avoid K ratings of 61 vs LHP and 76 vs RHP while his Peak card drops to the laughable values of 29 vs LHP and 36 vs RHP. This leads me to believe that Avoid K, along with a couple other categories like the defensive ratings, is NOT representative of their best year.
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Old 09-23-2019, 09:09 AM   #8
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I've seen cards that get totally crippled in Perfect Team from a low Avoid K rating, so it's important to get this right in the future.
That's interesting. I thought most of the research showed it didn't matter at all, that the other ratings first determine whether an out is made or not and avoid K simply determines if it's a strikeout afterwards which has some marginal downside but not much.

100 Gehrig's poor performance seems likely due to the lefty extreme pull tendencies getting crushed by the frequent shifts and elite defense you see in perfect.
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Old 09-23-2019, 11:00 AM   #9
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That's interesting. I thought most of the research showed it didn't matter at all, that the other ratings first determine whether an out is made or not and avoid K simply determines if it's a strikeout afterwards which has some marginal downside but not much.

100 Gehrig's poor performance seems likely due to the lefty extreme pull tendencies getting crushed by the frequent shifts and elite defense you see in perfect.
Nope, that's old thinking. Try playing Cecil Fielder and see how he does. Or Diamond Mike Schmidt or Perfect Eric Davis.
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Old 09-23-2019, 11:10 AM   #10
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I love the points 100 Eric Davis gets me but if I make it back to Perfect I'm probably going to pick up Garry Maddox to play CF for me.

He fits the theme because he was born in Cincinnati
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Old 09-23-2019, 12:29 PM   #11
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Nope, that's old thinking. Try playing Cecil Fielder and see how he does. Or Diamond Mike Schmidt or Perfect Eric Davis.

The reason those guys play horribly, is not for their avoid Ks rating but because they have very low contact rating.

The above mentioned slash line for Gehrig is just below what you would expect with those ratings, probably because extreme pull hitters suffer a bit due to shifts.
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Old 09-23-2019, 12:48 PM   #12
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The reason those guys play horribly, is not for their avoid Ks rating but because they have very low contact rating.

The above mentioned slash line for Gehrig is just below what you would expect with those ratings, probably because extreme pull hitters suffer a bit due to shifts.

I agree. My Gehrig has an almost identical slash line to the one posted by the OP. I also have perfect Mantle, with very similar ratings to Gehrig's and worse avoid Ks, and he performed just a bit better.
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Old 09-23-2019, 01:21 PM   #13
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The reason those guys play horribly, is not for their avoid Ks rating but because they have very low contact rating.

The above mentioned slash line for Gehrig is just below what you would expect with those ratings, probably because extreme pull hitters suffer a bit due to shifts.
Avoid K and Contact go hand-in-hand, as one is an input for the other. Contact is just an estimated rating based on a combination of a player's Avoid K, BABIP, and Power.

Because of the prevalence of high Stuff/Movement pitchers, the Contact rating estimation is off -- it understates the affect of Avoid K and overstates the affect of Power.

So the sluggers with high Power and low Avoid K will have a lower batting average than a player with equal Contact, but high Avoid K and low Power.
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Old 09-24-2019, 05:28 PM   #14
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Yeah, first off, even though, it's the 2nd time I'm mentioning it, I kind of you know wasn't complaining because I know it's not easy to take the statistics, & you feel like you have to add a little logic from their statistics to the ratings, & (come up with the ratings). I mentioned I was blowing off a little steam after a poor performance in the playoffs.

So I basically was just mentioning that I felt Gehrig was striking out too often.

The numbers from the slash line aren't so hard to explain considering the pitching...

But the main point I'm trying to make is if you adjust the avoid K from their normal OOTP ratings down for modern pitchers, it kind of gets adjusted doubly. First, their avoid K's is lower, & then they face guy who fan 8-10 hitters per game. It is enough that they face 8-10 K pitchers every game.

Maybe their ratings should be consistent & the match-ups would take care of the rest. There is proof in the Perfect Leagues that this take place, be it hitters who might hit .340 hitting .290, or sluggers that might hit 60 HR hitting 35 HR, etc. Â…

I think the reason I brought up Gehrig and Jackson is they are both well below average for Avoid K on their PEAK cards. It seems whatever adjustment was made would seem about right in theory until you play out a season of them facing K artists every day & some modern day players that strike out at least as much as they did in their time strike out significantly less than them. Or a player like Willie Mays, who has an avoid K of slightly above average but struck out quite a bit striking out less than them.

We can forget I ever posted except for my one point that if the ratings are adjusted for modern pitchers, then they will be at a double disadvantage. They will have the low avoid K rating & they will face high K pitchers. If the ratings were left alone they would still be striking out quite a bit more.
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