Competitive balance discussion

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Weaseltail

They also need to figure out the dreaded "end-game content" issue. Once you've spent your points and your team is basically set, there's not much to do other than check in every once in a while. Tournaments may help this, but unless you have an unlimited budget, you hit a wall and the game becomes very passive and much less interesting.

I really think tournaments will be the answer for this. It's like PVP in a MMORPG.

[Socali]

Originally Posted by Weaseltail

Packs are a good strategy if you have an unlimited budget. The AH is much better if you have a small budget or are trying to get by without spending money.

The OP has a point in that if you don't have a lot of money, it really hurts when you open several packs and get garbage. It could take days to save up enough points to open another pack, all the while your team is getting creamed and there's not much you can do to fix it. That's not the case if you're opening 50 packs. Odds are you'll get something valuable.

At the end of the day it's a pay-to-win model. Nothing wrong with that, and the devs have created league levels that allow small budget teams to eventually compete, but the pack odds make it tough for low-budget teams to improve much over time.

Excellent!

[stl jason]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

But how much is this really happening (losing 100 games each season)? With studying of players, a free team can compete, have a record over .500, and even win championships in the mid to high league levels. I would think if a team was losing 100 games yearly, the weaknesses could quickly be spotted and plugged without huge amounts of PP.

definitely agree here....

while my two F2P teams haven't won a championship yet (both won their bronze divisions but lost in the post season), neither one has lost 100 games in a season (one came close a couple years). Now that we're a handful of seasons in and the promotion/relegation has done it's job of sorting the team out a bit, there's definitely a better competitive balance in my current silver league.

my pack only/no AH team is still hovering around the .500 mark (starting pitching is their major weakness; and while it would be easy to snag improvements from the AH, I'm sticking with the no AH plan for them to see how long it'll take to build a solid team with just earned points and players from packs)

my preWW2 team has come together quite nicely (though earning enough points through play to be able to afford the top notch historical players is going to be slow going; which is why they are still in the silver leagues)... they have hovered around the 500 mark for all four seasons as the teams have slowly sorted out. This season in the silver league, they are the top team right now (it's early of course) at 22-10, so looking good so far.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by stl jason

definitely agree here....

while my two F2P teams haven't won a championship yet (both won their bronze divisions but lost in the post season), neither one has lost 100 games in a season (one came close a couple years). Now that we're a handful of seasons in and the promotion/relegation has done it's job of sorting the team out a bit, there's definitely a better competitive balance in my current silver league.

my pack only/no AH team is still hovering around the .500 mark (starting pitching is their major weakness; and while it would be easy to snag improvements from the AH, I'm sticking with the no AH plan for them to see how long it'll take to build a solid team with just earned points and players from packs)

my preWW2 team has come together quite nicely (though earning enough points through play to be able to afford the top notch historical players is going to be slow going; which is why they are still in the silver leagues)... they have hovered around the 500 mark for all four seasons as the teams have slowly sorted out. This season in the silver league, they are the top team right now (it's early of course) at 22-10, so looking good so far.

Good job and good luck. I have a free team that somehow made it to the Perfect level in the 4th season. To my surprise, they are currently playing well winning around 65% of their games. We'll have to see if that continues.

[Northernsky]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

Everybody gets a trophy is the mantra of the millennial generation.

It is just not fair for you to win and them to lose. Something must be done immediately about this unfair game. Fix it now so that we all get six Perfect cards from each and every pack.

That thinking that everyone gets a trophy is about as bad as Core math. Barf.

[Mooshimanx]

Originally Posted by Weaseltail

IMO the problem isn't the business model, it's designing a promotion system that gets teams to the appropriate level faster. I know the devs are looking at this and will hopefully have a better solution in OOTP20. Things are a lot better this week (at least for my teams).

They also need to figure out the dreaded "end-game content" issue. Once you've spent your points and your team is basically set, there's not much to do other than check in every once in a while. Tournaments may help this, but unless you have an unlimited budget, you hit a wall and the game becomes very passive and much less interesting.

My problem is that Gold is quite competitive for F2P or even small money teams, but Diamond and above is unplayable for those teams. You just get smashed by cookie cutter teams all of which have $100 in Perfect Cards (e.g. Trout, Betts, DeGrom, Sale) plus another couple hundo in other perfect cards. I made the ALCS in my Gold league with a 96 win team. My W/L% in Diamond is around .250 with an improved team from last week. That's not acceptable - you can't have a system where you are outright non-competitive for a week at a time. The problem is the economy. It's busted.

And no, it's not like actual baseball because the Yankees don't actually spend 20 times what other teams do. It's sort of like Magic: the Gathering - there's definitely a pay-to-play element in playing constructed decks in Magic but the diminishing returns set in way quicker than they do here.

That's actually what I think the thing the devs need to be looking at - MTG has a "drafting" system where you and all the other players open packs and pass them around (in a 'draft' where you take one card out of each pack and pass it to the next player until all the cards are gone) to fill out your deck - the entire card pool in such a format is the cards that were opened in that draft. Something similar could work out really well here to have more competitive leagues and to provide more value to players who are more interested in picking up budget friendly options and focusing on player/talent evaluation skills.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by Mooshimanx

My problem is that Gold is quite competitive for F2P or even small money teams, but Diamond and above is unplayable for those teams.

Why? I have a F2P team at the Diamond level that is currently in 1st place winning 62% of its games and a 2nd F2P team playing at the Perfect level).

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Mooshimanx

My problem is that Gold is quite competitive for F2P or even small money teams, but Diamond and above is unplayable for those teams. You just get smashed by cookie cutter teams all of which have $100 in Perfect Cards (e.g. Trout, Betts, DeGrom, Sale) plus another couple hundo in other perfect cards. I made the ALCS in my Gold league with a 96 win team. My W/L% in Diamond is around .250 with an improved team from last week. That's not acceptable - you can't have a system where you are outright non-competitive for a week at a time. The problem is the economy. It's busted.

And no, it's not like actual baseball because the Yankees don't actually spend 20 times what other teams do. It's sort of like Magic: the Gathering - there's definitely a pay-to-play element in playing constructed decks in Magic but the diminishing returns set in way quicker than they do here.

That's actually what I think the thing the devs need to be looking at - MTG has a "drafting" system where you and all the other players open packs and pass them around (in a 'draft' where you take one card out of each pack and pass it to the next player until all the cards are gone) to fill out your deck - the entire card pool in such a format is the cards that were opened in that draft. Something similar could work out really well here to have more competitive leagues and to provide more value to players who are more interested in picking up budget friendly options and focusing on player/talent evaluation skills.

What’s wrong with just staying in Gold level where you are competitive?

[Mooshimanx]

Originally Posted by Orcin

What’s wrong with just staying in Gold level where you are competitive?

Because you can't. The game doesn't let you.

That's the problem: you shouldn't be discouraged from winning your league. If you are good at all, you eventually will get demolished by Mike Trouts and Mookie Betts's.

[Thalion]

Originally Posted by Mooshimanx

My problem is that Gold is quite competitive for F2P or even small money teams, but Diamond and above is unplayable for those teams. You just get smashed by cookie cutter teams all of which have $100 in Perfect Cards (e.g. Trout, Betts, DeGrom, Sale) plus another couple hundo in other perfect cards. I made the ALCS in my Gold league with a 96 win team. My W/L% in Diamond is around .250 with an improved team from last week. That's not acceptable - you can't have a system where you are outright non-competitive for a week at a time. The problem is the economy. It's busted.

And no, it's not like actual baseball because the Yankees don't actually spend 20 times what other teams do. It's sort of like Magic: the Gathering - there's definitely a pay-to-play element in playing constructed decks in Magic but the diminishing returns set in way quicker than they do here.

That's actually what I think the thing the devs need to be looking at - MTG has a "drafting" system where you and all the other players open packs and pass them around (in a 'draft' where you take one card out of each pack and pass it to the next player until all the cards are gone) to fill out your deck - the entire card pool in such a format is the cards that were opened in that draft. Something similar could work out really well here to have more competitive leagues and to provide more value to players who are more interested in picking up budget friendly options and focusing on player/talent evaluation skills.

What's the revenue model in this scenario?

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by Thalion

What's the revenue model in this scenario?

I know nothing, just googled this - https://kotaku.com/rare-magic-card-s...000-1468597823

So my takeaway it's bad to spend $100 on Trout/Betts/Sale/deGrom (even though I dispute the price), but people are spending $27,000 on this game.

I should stay out of it, but that was what my limited searching led too.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Mooshimanx

Because you can't. The game doesn't let you.

If you can't compete at diamond, you will be demoted to gold. It's really that simple.

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by Orcin

If you can't compete at diamond, you will be demoted to gold. It's really that simple.

I've definitely seen teams pulled along out of their element during the initial wave of promotions, but I can't see a team bouncing back and forth week after week. I think it's more likely the team either had great luck in earning the promotion, or bad luck in getting the demotion.

[thakfu]

So, I'm a small money team, basically 3 diamond players, rest of my roster is golds and silvers and I dumb-lucked my way into perfect. I'm not the worst team in the league, I may not even be demoted, but I certainly suck. I kind of feel like my incentive to keep playing without paying is gone, cuz I'm pretty much gonna be stuck being a bottom feeder for the foreseeable future. The sharks can't go up anymore and I might very well not go down. And even if I do... what? I'm competitive for a year then go back to being shark bate?

Could a "refuse promotion" option be beneficial? I think I'd be pretty happy just hanging out in diamond level.

[old timer]

Originally Posted by Orcin

If you can't compete at diamond, you will be demoted to gold. It's really that simple.

It depends on what you mean by compete. If my team had won 1 more game at the diamond level, we'd still have lost 100 games and we'd still be there. With the improvements I made since and with the best teams moving out, I'd still be at diamond, but most likely would still be pretty bad.

While I'm fine with being stuck somewhere where I'm in over my head, a lot of people will lose interest if this happens to them. In my opinion, all that needs to be done to minimize this in the future is not to promote so many teams (teams like mine that didn't belong at higher levels) and you won't get so many teams getting stuck at too high of a level. And from what I've heard, it sounds like this will be improved for OOTP 20.

[old timer]

Originally Posted by thakfu

Could a "refuse promotion" option be beneficial? I think I'd be pretty happy just hanging out in diamond level.

Nice idea in a way, but too problematic (I think). For example, what if a super-team refuses promotion? It would seem boring to many of us to keep winning easily, but what if some people don't find this boring (or just want to frustrate others)?

Nevertheless, I can relate to what you're saying. What if my team wins its division with a barely .500 record and then goes on to win the WS and then are promoted? We probably don't yet belong at the higher level, but there we'll go since we won it all.

I doubt there's an ideal solution to this (is there ever?) so I can accept the current system until someone can think of something better.

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by thakfu

So, I'm a small money team, basically 3 diamond players, rest of my roster is golds and silvers and I dumb-lucked my way into perfect. I'm not the worst team in the league, I may not even be demoted, but I certainly suck. I kind of feel like my incentive to keep playing without paying is gone, cuz I'm pretty much gonna be stuck being a bottom feeder for the foreseeable future. The sharks can't go up anymore and I might very well not go down. And even if I do... what? I'm competitive for a year then go back to being shark bate?

Could a "refuse promotion" option be beneficial? I think I'd be pretty happy just hanging out in diamond level.

The initial wave of promotions could be brutal, but I missed the cut this week in diamond and things feel more normal. You basically have to make the World Series to get promoted to perfect now, so it's less automatic that you'll just get promoted back to perfect. And hopefully then the talent gap has narrowed and it feels better.

[ike121212]

As a FTP player in diamond, it's a terrible experience. I'm pretty much stuck there for life as a .500 team.

Too all those defending the card diversity, certain players are on 20 teams in my league. It just looks stupid and it isn't fun.

[Orcin]

I think it would be pretty easy to drop down a level. Surely it is not that hard to see how to do it.

[shockenawe]

You can be competitive as a FTP team in a diamond league. You just have to get creative in order to do it.