Finally, the Cleveland Indians are done with Chief Wahoo

Antonin · 02-03-2018, 05:14 PM

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index...ndians_58.html

At long last, my hometown baseball team is beginning to move slowly into the 21st Century. I can only hope that the name of the team will be changed within my lifetime.

When minorities say to the majority, "The images you use to represent us, and the ways you present our culture and use it for your own entertainment, are racist," the majority should listen to them.

Respect for all cultures and all ethnic groups--those who were here first and those who came later, via Ellis Island or in the cargo holds of ships--should be the cornerstone of American society.

Ragnar · 02-03-2018, 06:07 PM

Ok, why does the name "Indians" need to be changed? Is that a slur? How is it insulting to be represented by a professional team? Please explain that to me.

The Game · 02-03-2018, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Ok, why does the name "Indians" need to be changed? Is that a slur? How is it insulting to be represented by a professional team? Please explain that to me.

Indians is better then Redskins.

RchW · 02-03-2018, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antonin

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index...ndians_58.html

At long last, my hometown baseball team is beginning to move slowly into the 21st Century. I can only hope that the name of the team will be changed within my lifetime.

When minorities say to the majority, "The images you use to represent us, and the ways you present our culture and use it for your own entertainment, are racist," the majority should listen to them.

Respect for all cultures and all ethnic groups--those who were here first and those who came later, via Ellis Island or in the cargo holds of ships--should be the cornerstone of American society.

My criticism of the Indians is that the Wahoo logo is just not going to be on the field. Items with it can be bought. Seems a half-baked way of doing it.

The Game · 02-03-2018, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

My criticism of the Indians is that the Wahoo logo is just not going to be on the field. Items with it can be bought. Seems a half-baked way of doing it.

Yeah, they seem to be doing it just for the ASG iin 2019. Would not surprise me to see it back in 2020.

msupoke · 02-03-2018, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Game

Yeah, they seem to be doing it just for the ASG iin 2019. Would not surprise me to see it back in 2020.

That would make them the most classless franchise in professional sports, overtaking both the Redskins and Cowboys in the NFL and the Mavericks in the NBA.

PotatoPeeler · 02-03-2018, 10:15 PM

Finally: The Indians Are Replacing Their Racist Mascot Chief Wahoo With A White Woman Wearing A Native American Halloween Costume

msupoke · 02-03-2018, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PotatoPeeler

Finally: The Indians Are Replacing Their Racist Mascot Chief Wahoo With A White Woman Wearing A Native American Halloween Costume

Inspiring Washington to change its NFL mascot from Redskins to Human Trophy Pelts.

Cobra Mgr · 02-03-2018, 11:43 PM

I personally think Cleveland is trying to phase out all "Indians" references slowly to the point no one notices it and makes a big fuss. When they finally change the nickname all together they hope it won't be a big deal.

I personally don't understand why they don't change the name to their unofficial nickname, the Tribe. It would keep the "heritage" of the franchise while not offending others by making a race a mascot.

msupoke · 02-04-2018, 12:13 AM

I am not sure why "Indians" is offensive. It is celebrating a race.

The Chief Wahoo logo is the equivalent of the racial caricatures used against African Americans and Jews. The name "Redskins" is celebrating the brutal extermination of a race. Those are offensive.

RchW · 02-04-2018, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msupoke

I am not sure why "Indians" is offensive. It is celebrating a race.

Indigenous North Americans are not Indians. I don't think that Cleveland is celebrating the race(s) of people who inhabit India.

Cobra Mgr · 02-04-2018, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msupoke

I am not sure why "Indians" is offensive. It is celebrating a race.

The thinking is when people start dressing as the mascot when it is a race of people, or assimilating aspects of their culture, it comes off as a mocking. It is looked at as the same as when vaudeville performers were on stage in "blackface".

msupoke · 02-04-2018, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Indigenous North Americans are not Indians. I don't think that Cleveland is celebrating the race(s) of people who inhabit India.

True, but that has become one of the accepted names for them. The name has not been used as a slur.

msupoke · 02-04-2018, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

The thinking is when people start dressing as the mascot when it is a race of people, or assimilating aspects of their culture, it comes off as a mocking. It is looked at as the same as when vaudeville performers were on stage in "blackface".

I can understand that, but it has more to do with the physical interpretation than the word itself.

Cobra Mgr · 02-04-2018, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msupoke

I can understand that, but it has more to do with the physical interpretation than the word itself.

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean you understand why people would be offended @ the dressing & caricatures but not the nickname itself?

RchW · 02-04-2018, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msupoke

True, but that has become one of the accepted names for them. The name has not been used as a slur.

Yes it has. What do you think the term "Indian giver" means?

Theodore Roosevelt said, "I don’t go so far as to think that the only good Indians are the dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every 10 are".

msupoke · 02-04-2018, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean you understand why people would be offended @ the dressing & caricatures but not the nickname itself?

Exactly. The term "Indian" or "American Indian" is not a derogatory slur.

msupoke · 02-04-2018, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Yes it has. What do you think the term "Indian giver" means?

Theodore Roosevelt said, "I don’t go so far as to think that the only good Indians are the dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every 10 are".

"Indian" and "Indian giver" are two separate things. That is like saying "African-American" is offensive because of the racist phrase "African-American engineering."

For the Roosevelt quote, substitute "Caucasian" for "Indian" and tell me if that makes "Caucasian" an offensive term. Using a word in a racist sentence does not make the word itself offensive.

BaseballMan · 02-04-2018, 02:55 AM

I don't think the Indians or redskins ever intended their nicknames as slurs.
Nicknames are usually chosen as something a city and team are known for or as a sign of strength. Really doesn't make sense to pick a nickname that would be seen as weak
.
However i can not tell a Native American that it is not racist though i believe the word redskins was a cultural reference rather than a racist slur when first used.
To be honest i never saw Chief Wahoo as a joke or a representation of Native Americans as weak or dumb. i think looney toons and other cartoons were worse.

I guess Cleveland could go back to the Blues or dig Nap Lajoie way up and go by the Naps again.

RchW · 02-04-2018, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msupoke

"Indian" and "Indian giver" are two separate things. That is like saying "African-American" is offensive because of the racist phrase "African-American engineering."

For the Roosevelt quote, substitute "Caucasian" for "Indian" and tell me if that makes "Caucasian" an offensive term. Using a word in a racist sentence does not make the word itself offensive.

Seriously? You can't see the obvious difference even in your own words above?

02-03-2018, 05:14 PM	#1
Antonin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,424	Finally, the Cleveland Indians are done with Chief Wahoo http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index...ndians_58.html At long last, my hometown baseball team is beginning to move slowly into the 21st Century. I can only hope that the name of the team will be changed within my lifetime. When minorities say to the majority, "The images you use to represent us, and the ways you present our culture and use it for your own entertainment, are racist," the majority should listen to them. Respect for all cultures and all ethnic groups--those who were here first and those who came later, via Ellis Island or in the cargo holds of ships--should be the cornerstone of American society. __________________ Cultural icons, gone but not forgotten: David Bowie, Lou Reed, William S. Burroughs, Tristan Tzara, Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsburg, Jimi Hendrix, John Cage, Johnny Thunders (New York Dolls), Mike Hudson (The Pagans), Joey Ramone (Ramones), Stiv Bators (Dead Boys), Tomata Du Plenty (The Screamers), Joe Strummer (The Clash), Lester Bangs

02-03-2018, 10:15 PM	#7
PotatoPeeler Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Rapid City, SD Posts: 3,639	Finally: The Indians Are Replacing Their Racist Mascot Chief Wahoo With A White Woman Wearing A Native American Halloween Costume __________________ 培傑西 I have never taken a lesson on how to talk on TV in my life. - Tim McCarver Guns have only two enemies; rust and liberals. The world is a comedy to those that think; a tragedy to those that feel.

02-03-2018, 11:43 PM	#9
Cobra Mgr Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Parts unknown Posts: 6,394	I personally think Cleveland is trying to phase out all "Indians" references slowly to the point no one notices it and makes a big fuss. When they finally change the nickname all together they hope it won't be a big deal. I personally don't understand why they don't change the name to their unofficial nickname, the Tribe. It would keep the "heritage" of the franchise while not offending others by making a race a mascot. __________________ If a man is guilty 4 what goes on inside of his mind, then let me get the electric chair 4 all my future crimes. - Prince Batdance June 7, 1958 - Apr 21, 2016

02-04-2018, 12:13 AM	#10
msupoke All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 621	I am not sure why "Indians" is offensive. It is celebrating a race. The Chief Wahoo logo is the equivalent of the racial caricatures used against African Americans and Jews. The name "Redskins" is celebrating the brutal extermination of a race. Those are offensive. __________________

02-03-2018, 06:07 PM	#2
Ragnar Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,013	Ok, why does the name "Indians" need to be changed? Is that a slur? How is it insulting to be represented by a professional team? Please explain that to me.

02-04-2018, 02:55 AM	#19
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,270	I don't think the Indians or redskins ever intended their nicknames as slurs. Nicknames are usually chosen as something a city and team are known for or as a sign of strength. Really doesn't make sense to pick a nickname that would be seen as weak . However i can not tell a Native American that it is not racist though i believe the word redskins was a cultural reference rather than a racist slur when first used. To be honest i never saw Chief Wahoo as a joke or a representation of Native Americans as weak or dumb. i think looney toons and other cartoons were worse. I guess Cleveland could go back to the Blues or dig Nap Lajoie way up and go by the Naps again.