OOTP goes HOCKEY!!!!

[lubongo]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

Yes, our in-game mode is much like FM and EHM: the game will run and you will get commentary for interesting scenes. You can stop the clock whenever you want to change strategies or take a look at game stats, player stats or just can't stand the tension.

So it is a lot different to OOTP in that regard but that is in the nature of the sport.

I'm a noob that loves watching little dots skate around a "rink" chasing a smaller black dot. Does this mean there's a 2D match engine? That's great news if so.

This is truly the best thread I have ever read on any forum, ever. Best of luck to all you guys with this! I have no idea what I could do to help but I will definitely help in any way I can, just let me know =)

[highheat42]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

I thought EHM had a great and easy to use scouting system.
I could tell my scouts to scout the draft or individual countries or individual leagues or individual players with ease.

The OOTP scouting system is one of the few failed features that the game ever had. It simply never came together for me or very many other people.

I would hope that this new franchise would use a model close to the EHM model.

i agree totally, ehm seems to be more accurate to. I am bored out of my mind with scouting in ootp. I'm not saying ootp has to have every 1st rounder be amazing, but i get sick of the game when 10 years in a row the 1st round pick is a bust, over many different careers. or maybe i should work for pittsburgh.

[s3nn3n]

wow great news!

vs ehm .... i would love to see:

- practice drills more personalized and better interface (hated those checkboxes)
- more dynamic news (fans ecstatic over record setting xxth cup victory!)
- opposition GMs adjusting their trade negotiations based on my level of success

well, many more but will wait for the threads to open first!

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

I thought EHM had a great and easy to use scouting system.
I could tell my scouts to scout the draft or individual countries or individual leagues or individual players with ease.

The OOTP scouting system is one of the few failed features that the game ever had. It simply never came together for me or very many other people.

I would hope that this new franchise would use a model close to the EHM model.

While I agree the EHM system was good, I believe we should wait and see what the new game has to offer before we rule it out. After all, nobody has said it's going to resemble what's in OOTP.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by 21C

I had previously posted that a downloadable database already exists. This is an excerpt from its readme:

The data contains the following:

The file is available from hockey-databank : hockey-databank

Just to give an update: I was able to download the database and started to code an importer today. I have the teams done and will continue with the players tomorrow.

We will tweak our database to reflect the syntax of this database so we will add all additional leagues/teams/player the same way. A great head start for our researchers, so thanks for posting the link!

[Le Grande Orange]

Two things from my OOTP background which are relevant to this new hockey sim:

(1) Customizable playoffs
(2) Schedules

Playoffs are a big part of hockey, at least in North America. The NHL alone has used many different playoff formats over its history. Then there are the formats used by other leagues such as the AHL, WHA, and so forth. So I would strongly suggest the initial edition of this game feature a robust customizable playoffs screen on which the user can build the playoff format for their league. A couple of years ago I put together a design document for customizable playoffs in OOTP; I think that document would have a lot of application for this hockey sim, and would set an excellent foundation upon which to build.

As to schedules, the option to import these into the game from user-created schedule files should be included, much like how OOTP does it. There are plenty of real-world examples of schedules for various league sizes and alignments that could be included with the game to cut down on having to generate them. Just a little while ago I finished a list of the AHL's sizes, alignments, and schedule lengths over its history. Knowing the typical real-world league sizes, alignments, and schedule lengths would help set the stage for the degree of flexibility that fictional leagues in this new game should have.

[Nightmare]

HELLO! I would first of all like to thank you very much for what you are doing for us, hockey manager nuts. Second, I have a couple of ideas i would like to post.
1. This is related to the draft(NHL, KHL, CHL); I think that, when drafting, a team should take into account, besides value and needs, the chance of eventually signing that player, or the ease of keeping him around. For example the new, so called russian factor. If a team thinks it would not be worth drafting a potential second liner because he might not sign for entry-level money or might not be interested in wasting time at AHL level, they should pick otherwise.
2. I think that you should have european players that, when assigned to the AHL, should refuse to go, and probably leave the team and return home, or ask to be traded/transfered. We have many real-life examples of this happening, so it would be logical to have it in-game.
3. In the EHM I played a lot in Russia, and one thing that annoyed me was that I could not negociate with NHL clubs. I would like to be able to buy players from the NHL.
The last one is pretty much the must irritating thing in EHM, the NHL Release Clause. These kind of clauses may have existed in 2006, but in 2011 they are rare, and in Russia/KHL they are non-existant, so please let us, at least, decide if we want this clause in certain leagues or not. PLEASE!

[Le Grande Orange]

As a test, I recreated the 1994-95 American Hockey League schedule using the individual team game-by-game results as given on the Internet Hockey Database web site. It was a relatively simple procedure.

A few facts from the result: the AHL had a 5-6-5 alignment in 1994-95 and played an 80-game schedule. The regular season opened on Sept. 30, 1994, and closed on April 9, 1995, lasting a total of 192 days. The last game of the AHL championship was played on May 26, 1995, meaning the entire season, from first regular season game to last game of the playoffs, lasted 239 days (that's nearly eight months).

The format of the schedule is fairly asymmetric but clubs did play an even number of games against each of the other teams.

The upshot of this test is that using real-world hockey league schedules for the game is quite doable. (And real-world schedules are always better than purely game-generated ones since, well, they're examples of the real thing.)

[Sebastian Palkowski]

For schedules:

The game already imports schedules from individual text files so real schedules for every league/year are a feature I can confirm.

[Cryomaniac]

One thing I just thought of, will we be able to allow ties instead of having games go to a shootout? I know the NHL got rid of ties (after the lockout in '04/'05 IIRC), but obviously for any historical leagues they should be there.

Also, end of season tiebreakers should be correct (I'm not sure what they are in the NHL, but someone will know I'm sure). That is one of my "OOTP annoyances".

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

One thing I just thought of, will we be able to allow ties instead of having games go to a shootout? I know the NHL got rid of ties (after the lockout in '04/'05 IIRC), but obviously for any historical leagues they should be there.

That is stuff we define as rules for every league (otherwise we would not be able to mirror real life). So I can not tell much about the "how" but it will be possible.

[dave1927p]

Great stuff. can't wait. I'm hopeing it takes the customization from ootp as well. I've been wanting to change average goals per game in EHM for a long time along with start season date, minimum draft age, expansion draft etc etc.

For now, I'm just going to sit back and see what direction this is going in but you can count on a purchase from me either way. I'm still playing EHM and ootp (my ootp leagues resemble a 82 schedule season and nhl team names for a reason - sad truth to why i purchase ootp every year )

I'm sure you're already aware of EHM The Blue Line website. There are many knowledgeable fans there with some great ideas for features too

[dave1927p]

Let me just make one recommendation, that is please give us lets of updates and screenshots. the earlier you can do this, the more people will learn about the game and spread the news to folks (especially here in Canada )

Maybe closer to release do a blog on a season or two you simulate/play and use that to talk about some of the features. That i think will really help sell copies and inform people.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

That is stuff we define as rules for every league (otherwise we would not be able to mirror real life). So I can not tell much about the "how" but it will be possible.

Does that also go for defining the type of overtime? In the regular season, the NHL uses a five-minute sudden-death overtime. The WHA used to have a ten-minute sudden-death overtime. Also, the NHL overtimes are now four-on-four, whereas they used to be five-on-five.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by dave1927p

Maybe closer to release do a blog on a season or two you simulate/play and use that to talk about some of the features. That i think will really help sell copies and inform people.

That's more or less what they did with iOOTP, so hopefully it would be the same here.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

For schedules:

The game already imports schedules from individual text files so real schedules for every league/year are a feature I can confirm.

That's good. That leaves the playoffs.

Back when I worked on the design document for OOTP, I looked at the playoff formats in MLB and the minor leagues, as well as the main NBA, NFL, and NHL playoff formats. Some time after that there was a thread discussing playoff formats, and from that I picked up some ideas on playoff formats from different sports leagues in other countries, as well as looking again at the more obscure NHL playoff formats.

Now, after digging more into the AHL and WHL the last couple of days, there are even more playoff formats to consider (or new tweaks to existing formats) than I had been unaware of. Then there's still the IHL, OHL, and other hockey leagues to investigate...

Playoff customization will be, I think, a very important matter right from the start, given the sheer variety of options that real hockey leagues have used.

[mking55]

Almost wet my pants when I saw this thread. My dream in the text sports sim world would be a hockey game. However, for me, it would have to be a hockey game that uses historical players which I understand is no easy task.

If you flash back 50 years ago I knew all the NHL players by face. Not by number, not by team, but by their faces. I was just a kid and I cut my teeth on watching HNIC and when my parents controlled the TV, I listened to the radio.

For me, if the game just had modern teams (which are probably easier to come up with ratings for) I would just wish you the best and walk on by. If you could build a historical game using the players of the NHL (Eddie Shore anyone?) than I would be more than happy to lend whatever assistance I could.

I know that a lot of research would need to be done to get ratings and some assumptions made. How do you rate a Billy Harris (Leafs of the 60's)? It's not easy. You can't look at his stats and know the answer. He was a checking line guy. Those are the toughies. Bobby Hull is a no-brainer. Rocket Richard is a no-brainer. George Armstrong was an all-around player who could score (but not oodles of goals) and could check and lead a team.

There will be mistakes in ratings but I don't think ratings can be written in stone. As more information is discovered, you adjust the ratings. A simple example would be Stan Mikita. Mikita was an animal when he came to the NHL. He was an animal for many years. And then one day he said I'm going to be a complete hockey player. He led the league in scoring and won the Lady Byng trophy. It was an amazing turnaround.

The research team you need would be massive and you'd have to set down rules, in my opinion, on what kind of results you want. The information for the most part is out there and it might just be in stories. It's a difficult road but for those of us who dream of reliving our youth (and who doesn't) hockey is the ticket.

I'd be glad to help and add whatever support I can. I suggest having a look at DKS sports and their hockey game. It's a great effort but it just doesn't ring my bell. However, that may change. And I'm not talking about buying single seasons because that isn't the issue. The issue is building a good and absorbing game.

I wish you all the best and I for one will be pulling for you.

Palli, I love the work you did on iOOTP and your interaction with the online mob. Sometimes I wondered when you slept. I feel confident that this project is in the right hands.

[Le Grande Orange]

The prospect of this game has gotten me to dig into hockey-related league subjects the last few days (a change from the usual baseball-related research). I came across regular season and playoff attendance data in an old copy of an NHL Official Guide & Record Book I had buried in a stack of other books.

I offer the following as a (hopefully interesting) FYI. It is the per game average attendance at NHL regular season and playoff games from 1960-61 to 1992-93.

NHL Per Game Average Attendance

          Regular
Year      Season   Playoffs
---------------------------
1960-61   11,034   14,235
1961-62   11,597   15,389
1962-63   12,336   13,807
1963-64   13,013   14,721
1964-65   13,441   15,193
1965-66   14,006   15,563
1966-67   14,689   15,521
1967-68*  11,122   12,377
1968-69   12,172   13,083
1969-70   13,140   13,579
1970-71*  13,292   16,457
1971-72   13,937   16,185
1972-73*  13,743   16,438
1973-74   13,848   15,801
1974-75*  13,224   15,376
1975-76   12,644   15,131
1976-77   11,894   14,688
1977-78   11,842   15,259
1978-79   11,409   15,434
1979-80*  12,540   15,503
1980-81   12,769   14,212
1981-82   12,751   14,915
1982-83   13,120   16,488
1983-84   13,523   15,820
1984-85   13,850   15,821
1985-86   13,835   16,007
1986-87   14,114   15,908
1987-88   14,426   16,107
1988-89   14,783   15,991
1989-90   14,976   15,948
1990-91   14,695   15,676
1991-92*  14,511   15,441
1992-93*  14,046   16,217

*Expansion years

Some intriguing results in the above. Attendance at NHL regular season games was increasing at a rate of about 5% per year throughout the "Original Six" 1960s seasons—up until the first big expansion year. Then the per game average fell off dramatically (though of course total attendance was naturally higher due to the six extra teams). Thereafter the per game average attendance struggled to reach the peak it had hit just before the first big expansion exercise. In fact, it wasn't until the 1988-89 season that the per game average attendance at regular season NHL games finally surpassed the average that had been reached in 1966-67, some twenty-two years earlier.

[Le Grande Orange]

Coming back to playoff formats for a moment, there are a lot interesting formats that have been used over the years. Crossover qualifiers, byes in the second or third round, round-robins in the second round, etc., but one that I mostly forgotten about until checking back on earlier seasons was used by the OHL in the early to mid-1980s.

Series traditionally use the "best of" format where the team has to win the majority of games in the series, e.g. four out of seven. But the OHL used a "total points" format—that is, the team to first reach a set number of points in the series advanced, e.g. eight points. What this means is that tie games in the playoffs counted towards the series results.

So, for example, in an 8 point series, say one team wins the first three games of the series. It would be leading the series 6 points to 0. If the fourth game ended in a tie, the team would then be leading the series 7 points to 1. That means the team could win the series by simply getting a tie in the fifth game (in which case it would win the series 8 points to 2). A win would be more than enough to advance (it would win the series 9 points to 1).

Certainly a different take on the way a playoff series can be conducted...

[CeeBee]

What OS(s) will be supported. I'm still using XP and really hope to be able to avoid a new OS/computer at this point in time.