I'm out

[One Post Wonder]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

There could be a reasonable compromise, like a league with a $10 entry fee which gives you the usual 6 entry free packs and 10,000 PP and that league is locked with no further spending. Would be worth a try to see what happens and many would probably love that challenge.

I like this idea too. IMO PT would be better as a separate product or as DLC. If you still want to keep the model, it could be a free download.

It's not about just creating balance in PT although that would be nice. Looking at posts on the other forum, there also seem to be a lot of non-PT players who feel as though PT is constantly being shoved in their face. The PT title and login take up more than half of the title screen. Ongoing adjustments and patches seem to be impacting online leagues. It's turning some people off.

Those people are being told they're being ridiculous, and perhaps they are. But that's not important. If they form a significant part of the customer base then their opinions need to be respected too.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

There could be a reasonable compromise, like a league with a $10 entry fee which gives you the usual 6 entry free packs and 10,000 PP and that league is locked with no further spending. Would be worth a try to see what happens and many would probably love that challenge.

If this league existed, some people in it would get luckier than others with their pack draws. There would be people at the bottom of the league who were very unlucky with their draws. There would be no way to improve their teams at a faster pace than the draw winners, because they would earn PP at a slower pace by virtue of their lousy rosters. Eventually, these perpetual losers would either quit or come here whining about the rich getting richer and demanding an additional infusion of capital to even the playing field.

I don't see how this is any different than the current version, except that the better people have fewer great cards and the lower people have absolutely no hope. At least now, they could spend some money and climb back into the race.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

I have to admit that I do worry about OOTP embracing the Skinner Box model. Obviously it's good for short-term profit. And it's very fun at first for players. But it's a manipulation of the brain, and as such it's likely to (a) become a very large percentage of OOTPD's revenue and (b) be relatively destructive for its players. It's based on the same thing that makes people sit at those video poker machines all day long.

I'm playing right now and enjoying it, so I'm a bit of a hypocrite. But I'm very lucky in that my brain is relatively resistant to that particular kind of addictive behavior. Those whose brains are not... well, let's put it this way. I'm sure some of the whales have very good jobs and/or lots of disposable cash. But I'm equally sure that not all of them do.

[absurddoctor]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

I have to admit that I do worry about OOTP embracing the Skinner Box model. Obviously it's good for short-term profit. And it's very fun at first for players. But it's a manipulation of the brain, and as such it's likely to (a) become a very large percentage of OOTPD's revenue and (b) be relatively destructive for its players. It's based on the same thing that makes people sit at those video poker machines all day long.

I'm playing right now and enjoying it, so I'm a bit of a hypocrite. But I'm very lucky in that my brain is relatively resistant to that particular kind of addictive behavior. Those whose brains are not... well, let's put it this way. I'm sure some of the whales have very good jobs and/or lots of disposable cash. But I'm equally sure that not all of them do.

A giant +1 to this. I'm one of those less-resistant people, though I'm lucky enough to recognize that and to generally be able to put my own safeguards into place. I know other companies are more than happy to take advantage of people this way, but I have come to expect that of large, faceless organizations. I tend to think of OOTP as 'one of the good ones', so I admit to having found the dismissive responses to these concerns on the forums disappointing. My hope is that these concerns have at least been considered, but the mechanics of the game and those posts seem to point otherwise.

[Socali]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

...But I'm very lucky in that my brain is relatively resistant to that particular kind of addictive behavior. Those whose brains are not... well, let's put it this way. I'm sure some of the whales have very good jobs and/or lots of disposable cash. But I'm equally sure that not all of them do.

Unfortunately, that last sentence is sadly true. I would equate "brain wiring" more to the spiritual but that is a matter for a different forum .

[Zorro]

Originally Posted by absurddoctor

. I know other companies are more than happy to take advantage of people this way, but I have come to expect that of large, faceless organizations. I tend to think of OOTP as 'one of the good ones', so I admit to having found the dismissive responses to these concerns on the forums disappointing. My hope is that these concerns have at least been considered, but the mechanics of the game and those posts seem to point otherwise.

when it come to money there is no good ones . I am not saying this is right or wrong or good or bad, Just saying. We are all adults here.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by absurddoctor

A giant +1 to this. I'm one of those less-resistant people, though I'm lucky enough to recognize that and to generally be able to put my own safeguards into place. I know other companies are more than happy to take advantage of people this way, but I have come to expect that of large, faceless organizations. I tend to think of OOTP as 'one of the good ones', so I admit to having found the dismissive responses to these concerns on the forums disappointing. My hope is that these concerns have at least been considered, but the mechanics of the game and those posts seem to point otherwise.

OOTPD has given us no reason to doubt them yet. That's why I'm dismissive of the concerns. There's 20 years worth of games and development to show that OOTPD really is "one of the good ones," so the sky-is-falling mentality over the fact that they've branched out into a model that people find less-than-desirable is ridiculous. They're making money, people are entertained, and PT is completely optional. Can we wait until this mode actually affects the development of the game before crying foul?

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

But I'm very lucky in that my brain is relatively resistant to that particular kind of addictive behavior. Those whose brains are not... well, let's put it this way. I'm sure some of the whales have very good jobs and/or lots of disposable cash. But I'm equally sure that not all of them do.

At the risk of sounding cold, that's on them. It's not up to a company to police their customer's spending habits. If someone is going to blow money they don't have on PT, they're going to blow money on something else if PT doesn't exist. The onus isn't on the company, whether or not you think they're "taking advantage" of it.

[Germaniac]

I absolutely agree.

Every one of us has to decide if he's willing to spend real money or just play for the fun of it, you can't blame OOTP if you're spending lots of money on PT.

I bought myself some PP, but this was a) to try how it actually works and b) to support the project.

I'm pre-ordering for about 10 years now, so I figured I should give something back.

Oh, BTW, I still haven't touched the PP I purchased yet

[damientheomen3]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

I have to admit that I do worry about OOTP embracing the Skinner Box model. Obviously it's good for short-term profit. And it's very fun at first for players. But it's a manipulation of the brain, and as such it's likely to (a) become a very large percentage of OOTPD's revenue and (b) be relatively destructive for its players. It's based on the same thing that makes people sit at those video poker machines all day long.

I'm playing right now and enjoying it, so I'm a bit of a hypocrite. But I'm very lucky in that my brain is relatively resistant to that particular kind of addictive behavior. Those whose brains are not... well, let's put it this way. I'm sure some of the whales have very good jobs and/or lots of disposable cash. But I'm equally sure that not all of them do.

I agreed with all of this until very recently. Now I tend to swing more towards fyrestorm's point of 'it's not the company's job to police peoples' spending'. I tend to have an addictive personality and a lot of the games I enjoy playing the most, I enjoy because of the the thrill of seeing what I'm gonna get (basically sports simulators where you have less control over how a player develops and roguelites where you get random items every time).

Having said that, I've spent $30 on PT (misreported it as $40 in the past by accident) and I don't see myself spending another dollar unless maybe there's some big PP sale and I have money laying around. If people are of the type that they can't control themselves, they'll find another place to blow their money. Whether it's MLB The Show's equivalent, or baseball memorabilia, or something unrelated, it's going to happen anyways. I do think there is credence to your point though that some lighter spenders that haven't been roped into spending big yet could be more likely to do so in the future when upgrades are harder to come by though.

[One Post Wonder]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

But it's a manipulation of the brain, and as such it's likely to (a) become a very large percentage of OOTPD's revenue and (b) be relatively destructive for its players. It's based on the same thing that makes people sit at those video poker machines all day long.

I'm very familiar with such personalities. I'd mentioned this before and suggested a cut-off point for pp buying. No-one was on board with that, but I think OOTP is going to put a warning or disclaimer up at some point. So at the very least, it might give someone pause.

But beyond that we can hardly expect OOTP Developments to curb their own product. They could get PT off the title screen so that people won't be bombarded with that whenever they play OOTP, but would be an awful decision from a business/earning standpoint.

We're mostly an older group of gamers here though, so hopefully such players are self-aware enough to police themselves by now.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

At the risk of sounding cold, that's on them. It's not up to a company to police their customer's spending habits. If someone is going to blow money they don't have on PT, they're going to blow money on something else if PT doesn't exist. The onus isn't on the company, whether or not you think they're "taking advantage" of it.

It's a sliding scale, though, right? There are certain business models that are so inherently predatory that most societies do not tolerate them and few people would argue in favor of them. There are others that don't raise any such concerns. Then there are the gray areas. Prior to this point, OOTPD wasn't in one of the gray areas. Now it is.

And I'm not saying Perfect Team should be illegal - there are plenty of Skinner Box games that are far worse than this, and plenty of other businesses that are worse than predatory video games. Hell, I'm playing it right now and having fun with it!

I'm just saying I find it troubling. If it were me, I probably wouldn't be comfortable earning a living this way. Others will make different choices, and that's fair enough.

[One Post Wonder]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

If someone is going to blow money they don't have on PT, they're going to blow money on something else if PT doesn't exist.

It's not quite like that. Addicts and recovering addicts know to try and avoid their poison, but PT is right in your face if you open up OOTP. There's a triggering mechanism from just being in an environment. It gets the addiction into your head. If someone has a drinking problem, walking past a bar might set them off. That's just a very general example.

If someone has a gambling problem (that's likely the kind of person who would have trouble with this), they can avoid casinos and not go to such websites. But they open up OOTP which has always been as far away from that type of stuff as you can imagine, and PT is dominating half the title screen.

Just to be clear - I'm not trying to be a SJW, or arguing anything, or suggesting that OOTP shouldn't get as much payoff as possible from their efforts. I'm just trying to give a general overview of how that stuff kicks off, and what some people are trying to get at with this line of talk. They're not just some killjoys who want to prevent other people from having a better team than them (at least I don't think they are).

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Yeah, I will say this. I hadn't really thought about the fact that OOTP is now trying to sell everyone on Perfect Team every time they open the game. I think that's not a gray area - it's just flat-out wrong. I don't mind being labeled a "social justice warrior" - in fact, when I first heard the term I thought it was insane that this was something I was supposed to want to avoid being rather than something to aspire to. I wish I lived in a jurisdiction that mandated more protections for consumers from advertising of things like this that could be predatory.

[TreMetal]

Originally Posted by Orcin

If this league existed, some people in it would get luckier than others with their pack draws. There would be people at the bottom of the league who were very unlucky with their draws. There would be no way to improve their teams at a faster pace than the draw winners, because they would earn PP at a slower pace by virtue of their lousy rosters. Eventually, these perpetual losers would either quit or come here whining about the rich getting richer and demanding an additional infusion of capital to even the playing field.

I don't see how this is any different than the current version, except that the better people have fewer great cards and the lower people have absolutely no hope. At least now, they could spend some money and climb back into the race.

How does a lower team have any hope in the current version? If anything someone with poor luck in the $10 version has a much higher hope than a person spending no money and bad luck in the version vs teams of full Diamond + Perfect players.

It's kind of weird to hear someone argue that the $10 no additional buy-in is more unfair than unlimited buy-ins of the normal version.. but I guess people can argue anything, lol.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

If someone has a gambling problem (that's likely the kind of person who would have trouble with this), they can avoid casinos and not go to such websites. But they open up OOTP which has always been as far away from that type of stuff as you can imagine, and PT is dominating half the title screen.

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

It's a sliding scale, though, right? There are certain business models that are so inherently predatory that most societies do not tolerate them and few people would argue in favor of them. There are others that don't raise any such concerns. Then there are the gray areas. Prior to this point, OOTPD wasn't in one of the gray areas. Now it is.

Both valid points, and once the release dies down, I'm sure OOTPD would be more than willing to listen to reasons why PT shouldn't be pushed so hard in-game. But right now it's their hot new thing, of course they're going to try and sell it. I don't think that's wrong.

Like, it sucks if you're a recovering alcoholic and the cafe down the street gets sold and becomes a bar, and starts advertising drink specials for its grand opening. That's rough. But you can't put that on the new bar owner.

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by TreMetal

How does a lower team have any hope in the current version? If anything someone with poor luck in the $10 version has a much higher hope than a person spending no money and bad luck in the version vs teams of full Diamond + Perfect players.

It's kind of weird to hear someone argue that the $10 no additional buy-in is more unfair than unlimited buy-ins of the normal version.. but I guess people can argue anything, lol.

This year, with limited time left it will be hard to catch up to those who buy their teams but it is not impossible.

Right now there is a whale in my league. All diamond pitching rotation (even a perfect) and they have 10 diamonds and 1 perfect card and they are in third place. The two teams ahead of them in the standings do not have a diamond card between them.

It is possible to compete.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

Yeah, I will say this. I hadn't really thought about the fact that OOTP is now trying to sell everyone on Perfect Team every time they open the game. I think that's not a gray area - it's just flat-out wrong. I don't mind being labeled a "social justice warrior" - in fact, when I first heard the term I thought it was insane that this was something I was supposed to want to avoid being rather than something to aspire to. I wish I lived in a jurisdiction that mandated more protections for consumers from advertising of things like this that could be predatory.

It is not the company's responsibility to treat somebody's addictions. If someone needs help, it is ultimately their own responsibility to seek professional help. Too many people want to blame others for their own problems and responsibilities. You cannot expect others to care for or nurture your physical or emotional needs, that is up to you. A person should: A. Grow up or B. Seek a therapist. The world is full of temptation.

[TwinsTHunter]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

Yeah, I will say this. I hadn't really thought about the fact that OOTP is now trying to sell everyone on Perfect Team every time they open the game. I think that's not a gray area - it's just flat-out wrong. I don't mind being labeled a "social justice warrior" - in fact, when I first heard the term I thought it was insane that this was something I was supposed to want to avoid being rather than something to aspire to. I wish I lived in a jurisdiction that mandated more protections for consumers from advertising of things like this that could be predatory.

Ah yes. I dread the day that our society collapses and we all take a breath and admit, yes, OOTP's Perfect Team led to the financial collapse of this once great empire!

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by TreMetal

How does a lower team have any hope in the current version? If anything someone with poor luck in the $10 version has a much higher hope than a person spending no money and bad luck in the version vs teams of full Diamond + Perfect players.

It's kind of weird to hear someone argue that the $10 no additional buy-in is more unfair than unlimited buy-ins of the normal version.. but I guess people can argue anything, lol.

If everyone started with 10K in PP in the lower version and you open a pack which contains a perfect card the most you can sell it for is 10K on day one. There is much less incentive to sell your good cards because the payout won't be there. The AH prices won't be much higher than the minimum because there isn't much free PP to spread around.

Meanwhile someone opens 10 packs and gets lucky, fields a good team that dominates in the early stages, rakes in PP, and can rapidly improve, while others can only slowly improve.

Today the only limit on what you can sell the card for is what someone will pay, and the whales are bringing more PP into the game.

Everyone can't be successful either way. That's just the way things work.

Either way it's irrelevant, the free leagues has been beaten to death. Yes, a small fee league is a different idea, but why on earth would they potentially limit their revenue?