Historic Rookies Ratings Seem Off

[marc5477]

Hi,

I decided to turn on historic Rookies in my new game. We are now in 1986 and I am looking over some of the rookies and scratching my head at their ratings. I checked them in the editor just to see if it was my scout making the mistake but no... they are totally inaccurate in the editor too.

So my question is, how exactly does the game extrapolate historic rookie ratings? Do I need to turn on some sort of option to make them more accurate during creation? I do not want them to be accurate by year (because that would break the game since I would know who is good before hand) but Id like them to at least be created with some accuracy.

Here is an example:

David Wells spawned for the draft. He was a good starter in the majors. He was not great but he was a starter. The game spawned him as a MR with 1 stamina... in the editor, he has 15/250 stamina. Now, even if he was not great as a starter, the guy had some great years and pitched nearly 3500 innings in his career. Clearly, this is not right. I can edit it manually but that will only work for players I watched back then.

Here is another example and probably more irking thank DWells.

Tom Glavine... this guy is a hall of famer but in my game he spawned with potential stuff of only 9/20 & control potential is only 13. Tom Glavine is probably never going to make it out of AAA in my league unless he gets super lucky in development.

On the batting side, looking over the editor on rookies like Gerald Young and Ron Gant, it would seem that Gerald is going to be a superstar leadoff hitter while Gant will never make it out of minors. Treadway & Buhner will probably not even get drafted according to their potential in the editor... they were not great but they were definitely good role players. Buhner had some all star level numbers a few years.

So what gives?

[David Watts]

Did you start this league as a fictional league with fictional players and then turn on historical rookies?

[The Game]

Originally Posted by marc5477

David Wells spawned for the draft. He was a good starter in the majors. He was not great but he was a starter. The game spawned him as a MR with 1 stamina... in the editor, he has 15/250 stamina. Now, even if he was not great as a starter, the guy had some great years and pitched nearly 3500 innings in his career. Clearly, this is not right. I can edit it manually but that will only work for players I watched back then.

You have tons of factors involved that you have not mentioned.
1 scouting and what level. Turn on 100 % and you will see the ratings for what they are not what your scout thinks the player might be.
2. Recalc how often 3 or 1 or whatever the other option is. Random debut or?
3. what other import options do you have set. Peak , remaining, current etc.
David Wells was a reliever his 1st 5 years in the majors so him coming in as a MR in year one is no surprise.
In limited AB's Williams hit .296 vs Gant .265 3 HR vs 2. No surprise again.

[marc5477]

Originally Posted by The Game

You have tons of factors involved that you have not mentioned.
1 scouting and what level. Turn on 100 % and you will see the ratings for what they are not what your scout thinks the player might be.
2. Recalc how often 3 or 1 or whatever the other option is. Random debut or?
3. what other import options do you have set. Peak , remaining, current etc.
David Wells was a reliever his 1st 5 years in the majors so him coming in as a MR in year one is no surprise.
In limited AB's Williams hit .296 vs Gant .265 3 HR vs 2. No surprise again.

To answer a few questions:

Yes I started as a fictional league.

1 - I am bypassing scouting and using commish mode to look at the editor to verify scouting data. It does indeed look funny in the editor.

2 - I generally dont use recalc options. I am trying to maintain some semblance of consistency if possible and I dont want to see the numbers from the steroid era so i want the numbers to stay close to the mid to late 80's numbers.

3 - The only import check box I am using is Automatically Import Real Historical Rookies. The other options are unchecked.

I guess what I was expecting is for ratings to match a players yearly average not just their rookie year or even minor league performance... if based on rookie year alone, most historic rookies will suck lol. At the very least, their potential should match their average based on history. But it does not seem to do that.

Here is another example. In the 1987 draft, Randy Johnson is a scrub who will barely make mid reliever along with john smoltz. Ramon Marinez, Sandy Alomar Jr. & Brady Anderson would have never gotten drafted if I didnt edit them. Roberto Alomar hit 38 home runs his rookie year (and started with a crazy 16/15/13/14/14 current rating), and I had to fix Curt Schilling's stamina which started at 1 just like Wells. Biggio was drafted late because his potential stats stink big time (7/6/7/11/9). His pow potential is half that of Robby Alomar lol... at least it got his speed right. Last was Gary Sheffield who aparently has less power than Robby and half the contact potential... despite having similar batting average over his career and over 500 hrs lol.

I see what you mean though. If it is based on their rookie year then yes this makes some sense. But this is kind of sucks for us who want to play fictional. Is there any way to edit the rookie database? Has someone done it for fictional leagues in the past?

[David Watts]

One thing you might consider is starting your game as a historical league instead of a fictional one. You can always release all the real players, delete free agents and then fill your league with fictional players, release them again and hold an inaugural draft. Then when you reach the point that you want to turn on historic rookies you can do so, but have the advantage of using some of the key features that come with the historical game. For example, upon setting up your league, you will be able to select whether you want a players potential to be based on his peak seasons, his entire career etc. This will go a long way in helping you get players to more resemble their real life abilities.
Another thing I would suggest is to select the option upon setup to have pitchers stamina/ role (at work, so can't say exactly what it's called) based on entire career. This will go a long way in fixing your David Wells, Curt Schilling problems. If their role is based on their entire career they will import with solid stamina and more than likely be starters from the get go.
You may want to dial the talent change randomness setting down a bit as well, but that's entirely up to you.
Remember to turn off the option for recalc when you create your league.

I've never turned on the option for historic rookies from a fictional setup, but I have played plenty of historic leagues without recalc. For the most part players perform close to their real life abilities, but there are a ton of interesting differences as well.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by David Watts

One thing you might consider is starting your game as a historical league instead of a fictional one. You can always release all the real players, delete free agents and then fill your league with fictional players, release them again and hold an inaugural draft. Then when you reach the point that you want to turn on historic rookies you can do so, but have the advantage of using some of the key features that come with the historical game. For example, upon setting up your league, you will be able to select whether you want a players potential to be based on his peak seasons, his entire career etc. This will go a long way in helping you get players to more resemble their real life abilities.
Another thing I would suggest is to select the option upon setup to have pitchers stamina/ role (at work, so can't say exactly what it's called) based on entire career. This will go a long way in fixing your David Wells, Curt Schilling problems. If their role is based on their entire career they will import with solid stamina and more than likely be starters from the get go.
You may want to dial the talent change randomness setting down a bit as well, but that's entirely up to you.
Remember to turn off the option for recalc when you create your league.

I've never turned on the option for historic rookies from a fictional setup, but I have played plenty of historic leagues without recalc. For the most part players perform close to their real life abilities, but there are a ton of interesting differences as well.

Yep, this.

The op's issues stem from his playing OOTP historical in a way the game wasn't designed to properly cope with. If he does the stuff you mention, I think he'll be much happier with his experience.

[marc5477]

Originally Posted by David Watts

One thing you might consider is starting your game as a historical league instead of a fictional one. You can always release all the real players, delete free agents and then fill your league with fictional players, release them again and hold an inaugural draft. Then when you reach the point that you want to turn on historic rookies you can do so, but have the advantage of using some of the key features that come with the historical game. For example, upon setting up your league, you will be able to select whether you want a players potential to be based on his peak seasons, his entire career etc. This will go a long way in helping you get players to more resemble their real life abilities.
Another thing I would suggest is to select the option upon setup to have pitchers stamina/ role (at work, so can't say exactly what it's called) based on entire career. This will go a long way in fixing your David Wells, Curt Schilling problems. If their role is based on their entire career they will import with solid stamina and more than likely be starters from the get go.
You may want to dial the talent change randomness setting down a bit as well, but that's entirely up to you.
Remember to turn off the option for recalc when you create your league.

I've never turned on the option for historic rookies from a fictional setup, but I have played plenty of historic leagues without recalc. For the most part players perform close to their real life abilities, but there are a ton of interesting differences as well.

Oh I didnt even realize those options exist because I never tried historical before. Well that changes a lot of stuff. I wonder why those options are not available in general options for imported rookies? I would make sense.

I will try another restart... I need to make adjustments to the league for the AI anyway because it is still being boneheaded and overpays a lot of mediocre players despite the adjustments I already made in its favor.

[marc5477]

Originally Posted by marc5477

Oh I didnt even realize those options exist because I never tried historical before. Well that changes a lot of stuff. I wonder why those options are not available in general options for imported rookies? I would make sense.

I will try another restart... I need to make adjustments to the league for the AI anyway because it is still being boneheaded and overpays a lot of mediocre players despite the adjustments I already made in its favor.

Okay so I went through a historic setup and found the setting you guys are referring to. This is not really what I wanted. Here is the problem, I do not want to recalc every year. But it looks like the rookies will not have correct ratings unless I recalc. The problem is, I do not want to recalc everyone else, just the rookies that get created every year. This options however forces a recalc on all historic players.

I play fictional precisely because I do not want to use historic values every year. What I want is for rookies to have potential to be what they were in real life but I want them to develop normally in game like anyone else. I suppose I can just stop the import or real rookies.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by marc5477

Okay so I went through a historic setup and found the setting you guys are referring to. This is not really what I wanted. Here is the problem, I do not want to recalc every year. But it looks like the rookies will not have correct ratings unless I recalc. The problem is, I do not want to recalc everyone else, just the rookies that get created every year. This options however forces a recalc on all historic players.

I play fictional precisely because I do not want to use historic values every year. What I want is for rookies to have potential to be what they were in real life but I want them to develop normally in game like anyone else. I suppose I can just stop the import or real rookies.

Did you set potential to be based on peak seasons? If so the players should import with their peak potential and you won't have to recalc to get what you want.

[David Watts]

If you uncheck the box for recalc, recalc is off. That means players are going to develop according to the OOTP development engine. Rookies will import with the potential to be what they were in real life. Your potential will be based on what selection you make. Entire career, peak seasons, remaining career(which is basically the same as entire career if you are starting fictional and importing only rookies) and I think the last option is remaining peak seasons. The key word to remember is potential. But, I assure you, if you turn recalc off, historic players aren't going to have recalc forced on them every year. They will develop in whatever way the OOTP engine takes them.

I have very little experience in mixing fictional with historic. I'm also not a person to talk to about ratings. I pay absolutely no attention to them. I have read some very interesting posts by Sprague and he points out that the game significantly under rates historic players in comparison to their fictional brethren. So maybe that's part of the issue you're seeing.

I really hope you get this sorted out.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I have very little experience in mixing fictional with historic. I'm also not a person to talk to about ratings. I pay absolutely no attention to them. I have read some very interesting posts by Sprague and he points out that the game significantly under rates historic players in comparison to their fictional brethren. So maybe that's part of the issue you're seeing.

I really hope you get this sorted out.

In both my EBL vs MLB league and my original ABF league I would bring in a variety of historical players and mix them with OOTP generated fictional players. While their defense overall tends to be less then the fictional players the stats tend to be close to their original person. i always clone the import so there are no weird double year stats for a year that that player played.
Yes they develop differently then the orig.

Matt Gagne is a clone of Mickey Mantle. You can see he is no where close to The Mick, but still has a ton of power. i did drop his OF ratings and kept him as a SS for his whole career.

When i import and clone a historical player i tend to always use remaining seasons, defense & stamina for entire career.
I cloned Maddux and made him into Markus and he had 5-6 good years but was no where near Mad Dog. Andreas was Graig Nettles and was perhaps better then the orig especially since he played 4 positions.

[marc5477]

Originally Posted by David Watts

If you uncheck the box for recalc, recalc is off. That means players are going to develop according to the OOTP development engine. Rookies will import with the potential to be what they were in real life. Your potential will be based on what selection you make. Entire career, peak seasons, remaining career(which is basically the same as entire career if you are starting fictional and importing only rookies) and I think the last option is remaining peak seasons. The key word to remember is potential. But, I assure you, if you turn recalc off, historic players aren't going to have recalc forced on them every year. They will develop in whatever way the OOTP engine takes them.

I have very little experience in mixing fictional with historic. I'm also not a person to talk to about ratings. I pay absolutely no attention to them. I have read some very interesting posts by Sprague and he points out that the game significantly under rates historic players in comparison to their fictional brethren. So maybe that's part of the issue you're seeing.

I really hope you get this sorted out.

I had it set to peak seasons, and I ran about 6 years of simming. It still messes up pitchers stamina. For example, at the very end of my experiment, the league listed Pedro Martinez as a closer with 1 stamina.

Obviously, if I turn recalc on, then this gets fixed. I wish I could run recalc on just created rookies and not all the historic players...

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by marc5477

I had it set to peak seasons, and I ran about 6 years of simming. It still messes up pitchers stamina. For example, at the very end of my experiment, the league listed Pedro Martinez as a closer with 1 stamina.

Obviously, if I turn recalc on, then this gets fixed. I wish I could run recalc on just created rookies and not all the historic players...

What did you set base pitcher stamina on?

[David Watts]

I just created 1992 and with "base stamina on" set to entire career Pedro imported as a starter with a stamina of 18 out of 20. Created 1993 "base stamina on" entire career and Pedro imports as a starter with 19 stamina. Then just for fun I created 1991, simmed the season, held the rookie draft and simmed to preseason. Pedro is a starter with 19 stamina.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by marc5477

I had it set to peak seasons, and I ran about 6 years of simming. It still messes up pitchers stamina. For example, at the very end of my experiment, the league listed Pedro Martinez as a closer with 1 stamina.

Obviously, if I turn recalc on, then this gets fixed. I wish I could run recalc on just created rookies and not all the historic players...

You can. Delete the Lahman id for every historical player loaded in your league.

This can be done simply by exporting the rosters, changing the exported file to a .csv, opening it in excel or oo, deleting the Lahman id for anyone you don't want to be subject to recalc, then saving and importing the roster file. Those historical players you deleted the id for will be treated as fictional players by the game but new rookies will be subject to recalc so long as you don't delete their Lahman id.

But the quickest easiest thing is to follow David's suggestion and simply base the stamina on career when setting up the league.

[Lukas Berger]

The game is so customizable and flexible it will do nearly anything you might want it to do, with a few exceptions. It's simply a matter of learning how to get it to do stuff and what the features are. Which is where these boards are a big help, as many of us can give loads of advice if you just ask

[marc5477]

Originally Posted by David Watts

What did you set base pitcher stamina on?

You mean in the PCM's? I had it set to .90 of static 1990 results. Did you have recalc on in your game?

It seems to be a recurring problem in my game. Everyone else seems ok, its just pitchers. The latest problem was Kelvim Escobar who was created with 2 stamina. This game was set to use peak seasons... in the case of Escobar, its possible the game picked his closer years as his best season. I have had zero problems with batters, and relievers. Actually, with batters, it made too many good hitters since it was based on their peak seasons. I have a Marty Cordova who hits more homers and has a higher ave than Frank Thomas and Ken Griffey Jr lol... Though Jr got messed up by the AI cause they brought him up too early I think.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by marc5477

You mean in the PCM's? I had it set to .90 of static 1990 results. Did you have recalc on in your game?

Not the .pcm's.

He means in the selectable settings for importing players from the historical db when you set up the league. Just as you can choose to base potential on a players career, or initial seasons, you can also choose what to base historical pitcher's stamina on.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by marc5477

You mean in the PCM's? I had it set to .90 of static 1990 results. Did you have recalc on in your game?

It seems to be a recurring problem in my game. Everyone else seems ok, its just pitchers. The latest problem was Kelvim Escobar who was created with 2 stamina. This game was set to use peak seasons... in the case of Escobar, its possible the game picked his closer years as his best season. I have had zero problems with batters, and relievers. Actually, with batters, it made too many good hitters since it was based on their peak seasons. I have a Marty Cordova who hits more homers and has a higher ave than Frank Thomas and Ken Griffey Jr lol... Though Jr got messed up by the AI cause they brought him up too early I think.

No, recalc was off. Nothing at all to do with PCM's.

Very first screen you get when you select create historical league.
1. You select the year you want to import---you should see a green box that says Show Advanced Options. Click that and you see the 4 options for your league.
1 Base current ratings on
2 Base potential ratings on
3 Base fielding ratings on AND
4 Base Pitcher Stamina on---------you have 3 options available. You can base it on imported season. You can base on 3 year period and you can base it on ENTIRE CAREER.

Another thing you could try is to change the "Base pitcher stamina on" in your already created league from the historical section. Not sure if it will change already created players, but if you're going to scrap the league it won't hurt to try. Just go to the historical menu of your league and you will see the option for stamina on the right side.

[marc5477]

Originally Posted by David Watts

No, recalc was off. Nothing at all to do with PCM's.

Very first screen you get when you select create historical league.
1. You select the year you want to import---you should see a green box that says Show Advanced Options. Click that and you see the 4 options for your league.
1 Base current ratings on
2 Base potential ratings on
3 Base fielding ratings on AND
4 Base Pitcher Stamina on---------you have 3 options available. You can base it on imported season. You can base on 3 year period and you can base it on ENTIRE CAREER.

Another thing you could try is to change the "Base pitcher stamina on" in your already created league from the historical section. Not sure if it will change already created players, but if you're going to scrap the league it won't hurt to try. Just go to the historical menu of your league and you will see the option for stamina on the right side.

Oh yea I remember that now. I honestly don't remember what i set it to but knowing myself I would have chosen entire career since this was the main reason I did the restart to begin with... that was a while ago. Is there any way to check the settings and change them after the league is working? Can i maybe edit the save game files?