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OOTP 16 - General Discussions Discuss the new 2015 version of Out of the Park Baseball here! |
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04-11-2015, 03:49 PM | #1 |
Minors (Rookie Ball)
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20
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Can't trade C- prospect for $1. Why?
I have a question about the AI trade evaluation.
Current league date is 1/1/2017. Here's a player in my minors: His overall rating is 21. OSA thinks his potential is 28. My scout thinks his potential is 34. (Edit: I'm using the 20-80 scale.) Clearly, he doesn't look like a future all-star. He might be a not-quite-average MLB player, if everything works out. Maybe a .250 hitter with 20HR at his peak, unless there's some unexpected talent development. But he's better than a lot of guys in the minors, who have 20 or 21 potential, and not a single rating that projects as above average. At least Mr. Terry here has potential plus power. But I don't need him on my roster, so I went to each team and tried to see what they would give me. Turns out, they will give me less than nothing for him. When I offer him in exchange for $1 in cash, almost every team says "That's a very bad deal for us. I won't even bother discussing this." The only teams that don't say that are the ones that don't actually have any cash, so they can't even give a reaction. The one team that isn't outright laughing in my face is the Red Sox, who say "That's not a fair deal, you have to offer us some more." My trade settings are Hard/Neutral, and evaluation settings are 40/30/20/10. To get any team to provide a positive reaction, *I* have to give money to *them* in the deal. Some amount between $100k and $1M is enough for them to take this C- prospect off my hands. My question is this: how does any of this make any sense? Why am I unable to get anything, not even one dollar, in return for this guy? Sure, he's a long shot to ever provide value to the MLB club. But he's got a better chance than tons of guys in every minor league system. He's only 20 years old, he just OPSed .930 in Rookie-league ball, and it costs nothing to roster him. What am I missing? Last edited by skoormit; 04-11-2015 at 04:20 PM. |
04-11-2015, 03:51 PM | #2 |
All Star Reserve
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 693
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Just a heads up: if you set trade difficulty to Very Hard, then you'll run into the same thing when trying to move many blue chip prospects
Typically the only time the AI is willing to part with cash is when they're trading away a player that has a major league contract. And even then, depending on the player(s) you're sending them, they may not part with any cash Last edited by ezpkns34; 04-11-2015 at 03:52 PM. |
04-11-2015, 04:00 PM | #3 | |
Minors (Rookie Ball)
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20
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04-11-2015, 04:03 PM | #4 |
All Star Reserve
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 693
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There's definitely something odd with the way the AI evaluates cash in trades (& it has been this way for years), but as for the reasons for that...that's above my pay grade
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04-11-2015, 04:09 PM | #5 | |
Minors (Rookie Ball)
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20
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Quote:
But I can't even trade my guy for any generic 25 yr old 20overall 20potential guy who hasn't even made it to AA. It almost seems like the AI is assessing the value of my guy, then subtracting a million dollars, and that's what he will give in return. |
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04-11-2015, 04:19 PM | #6 | |
All Star Reserve
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 693
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Quote:
1. Just release them 2. Offer them with cash (for new 2015 league, $1M is enough) for other prospects/players 3. Either go into commish mode & force trades or set trade AI to Easy & offer AI teams trades for the prospect that would make sense for them (or that wouldn't make sense if you don't care about ripping off the AI) 4. Just keep the guys in your system anyway (this almost always leads to you then choosing Option #1 for them the following season) Personally, the entire way OOTP handles finances is what I feel like has needed the most attention for awhile, but it appears that either nobody else feels that way or it's more hassle than it's worth to make improvements to it |
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04-11-2015, 10:10 PM | #7 |
All Star Starter
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 1,746
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To be honest, I wouldn't take that guy if you tried to trade him to me. He "might" develop into a below average MLB player but what do I want him if that is his only upside? He's just taking away at bats from someone else. I undertand its only a $1 but that just a guy I wouldn't take so it's not unreasonable for the CPU not to want him...
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04-11-2015, 10:35 PM | #8 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The big smoke
Posts: 15,628
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04-12-2015, 12:33 AM | #9 | |
Minors (Rookie Ball)
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20
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Quote:
I look around at the other teams' minor league systems and I see lots of guys with potential of just 20, at 25 years old. Why wouldn't an AI GM rather have this guy, and release one of his 25 yr olds that are clearly less likely to ever provide value? |
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04-12-2015, 12:53 AM | #10 |
Minors (Rookie Ball)
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20
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But wait, it gets worse.
With the trade difficulty on Very Hard, and eval still at 40/30/20/10, the Mariners (who still won't even discuss giving me $1 for this guy) are eager to trade me a MLB RP (Yoervis Medina) and $2.75M in cash. Medina has a 1-year contract (via arb) for $1.92M. Medina isn't a bad pitcher, but this trade, coupled with their refusal to give me $1 for Terry, could only make sense if the Mariner's were trying to dump Medina's contract. But if that were the case, couldn't they just release Medina and cost themselves only $1.92M? Why are they willing to pay me at least $830k in surplus cash value to get Terry in exchange for Medina, but they won't give me $1 for Terry in a standalone deal? |
04-12-2015, 12:57 AM | #11 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases......
Posts: 16,142
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Quote:
Take off his skewed glasses by setting trading to Neutral and he should be more willing to trade his scrubs for your near-scrubs. |
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04-12-2015, 01:16 AM | #12 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: All alone
Posts: 12,612
Infractions: 0/1 (1)
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Make a house rule: no cash in trades. The AI does not handle it well. And leave trading difficulty on Very Hard. At Neutral you can rip off the AI.
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04-12-2015, 01:24 AM | #13 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases......
Posts: 16,142
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The Neutral Trading setting is fair and balanced and you will not rip off the AI if you stick to 1 for 1 trades. The easiest way to take advantage of the AI on any trade setting is by giving them piles of warm bodies.
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04-12-2015, 01:34 AM | #14 | |
Minors (Rookie Ball)
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20
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04-12-2015, 01:38 AM | #15 | |
OOTP Developments
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Nice, Côte d'Azur, France
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04-12-2015, 01:41 AM | #16 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: All alone
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Average, Neutral...the middle setting. Never use anything but Very Hard unless you really like ripping off the AI.
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Five thousand thanks for a non-modder? I never thought I'd see the day. Thank you for your support. |
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04-12-2015, 03:36 AM | #17 |
All Star Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Danbury, CT
Posts: 1,617
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I'd take this guy. I love hoarding even marginal talent. But he's not a catcher.
25 ability/25 arm? No thanks. He's a third baseman. Edit: And he's going to be 21 all of 2017? Holy hell I'd take this guy in a nanosecond. Stick him in St. Lucie, at third base. This is the type of guy I look for, tbh.
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It's amazing How you make your face just like a wall How you take your heart and turn it off How I turn my head and lose it all And it's unnerving How just one move puts me by myself There you go just trusting someone else Now I know I put us both through hell ~Matchbox 20, "Leave" Everyone knows it's spelled "TRAID", not trade Last edited by tejdog1; 04-12-2015 at 03:38 AM. |
04-14-2015, 01:28 PM | #18 | |
Minors (Rookie Ball)
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20
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Quote:
To be honest, I find it frustrating that the AI is so poor at trade valuation that we need to operate under house rules just to have a playable experience. I know that it is very hard (or near impossible) to make an AI that is absolutely unexploitable by humans. But the AI trade reactions that I see fail to exhibit even elementary valuation rules. Unless I'm missing something. Which is why I'm here asking. To recap the situation: AI will not give me $1 for Curtis Terry. Won't even discuss the idea. This indicates that the AI values Curtis Terry at either $0 or some negative amount. (While I find it hard to believe that he's not worth $1, I can accept that perhaps my scout thinks more highly of him than all the other team's scouts, and all the other teams think more highly of all of their own 1B/3B prospects than they think of Mr. Terry, and therefore no one wants Mr. Terry taking up valuable playing time.) AI will give me Yoervis Medina and $2.75M in cash for Curtis Terry. This could only make sense (alongside the zero-or-negative value of Terry) if the AI places a value of $2.75M or more on getting rid of Medina. But Medina has a 1-year contract for $1.92M. If the AI values getting rid of him at $2.75M or more, they are better off by just releasing him outright than by trading him to me along with this much cash. Can anyone provide a cogent explanation for the above scenario? |
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04-14-2015, 01:38 PM | #19 | |
Developer OOTP
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Germany
Posts: 24,709
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Quote:
In your case, I'd have to look at the league files, but something causes the AI to value the contract it loses (not only current year, but also arbitration estimates) pretty high because they likely have a proper replacement for the role lost in the bullpen.
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04-14-2015, 02:50 PM | #20 | ||
Minors (Rookie Ball)
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20
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Thank you for the response, Markus. I know dev time is valuable and I greatly appreciate the time that you and your team invest with the player community.
Would you mind a couple quick follow-ups? Quote:
If something like that is the case, then perhaps the AI values Mr. Terry some amount less than the discount being applied, which is why I have to offer the AI money just to get them to take Terry. Quote:
If the AI does recognize that limit when it considers how much cash to include with a player, then it seems the AI is not applying the same discount on Mr. Terry that the AI seems to apply when I offer Mr. Terry in a straight-up deal. The AI is willing to add at least $830k (to the max $1.92M value of getting rid of Medina's contract) in this case in order to get Mr. Terry. FWIW, I'm not doing anything out of the ordinary in my league settings. It's just an MLB 2015 start, simmed to 1/1/2017 before I took over a team. I'm using 40/30/20/10 for valuation and the scenario I've described is stable across difficulties from Average to Very Hard and across preferences from Neutral to Heavily Favor Prospects. I haven't tested it on difficulties easier than Average or with preferences towards veterans. I'd be surprised if identical scenarios couldn't be easily recreated with a fresh league using the base MLB 2015 database. Thanks, again, for your time. |
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