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Old 08-19-2018, 04:23 PM   #1
rassy7
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No Control; Game Terminally Broken/Fatally Flawed

This game, and I choose to say game instead of simulation or any synonym that could imply any of even the most vague similarities to an actual baseball game, dramatically suffers from lack of control in vital areas.

I am only a couple months into the game, both IRL and in my season and I can already tell the game suffers irreparably from lack of control. People won't shut up about how deep and wide its is, but absolutely none of that matters if the gameplay during games itself is not usable. It is unconditionally impossible to make pitchers throw strikes and it destroys the game. What, I wonder, do the devs believe the value and power of "manager" is? Managers are Gods on baseball fields. In this game, they are casual spectators at best.

I can't count how many times I've scored close to 20 runs and lost. WTF? My pitchers are racking up 50 pitches in the 2nd inning--good pitchers too. They walk everyone--opposing pitchers AB after AB. They almost never make an out before a full count. Strikeout? Forget it. These guys refuse to throw third strikes. They won't do it and there's not way to force it. Ridiculous!

Even real life managers can say, "Hey, just get one over the plate here. Take something off of it if you have to. Let the defense do its job. If it goes over the fence, it goes over the fence, but throw a strike."

The code must be riddled with if statements like the following:

If count.strikes < 3 then
throwNoStrikes()
end

That commentary is as foreign to this game as the concept of 3D graphics. 4-star groundball pitchers give up dinger after dinger in the opening innings, repeatedly. What's the point of planning, evaluating numbers and statistics if they all go out the window when the game starts. Don't believe me? Try simming the same game 25 times. Same players, same weather, same everything and the score and stats will vary wildly. Everything is this game is a crapshoot. Nothing we do has any impact.

Football Manager is an amazing creation that is as deep, if not deeper, AND provides unparalleled, in-match control which both affects the outcome of the match AND is visible, possible to verify and not lacking in its breadth of control.

People new to this game, if you can, return it and get whatever amount you paid. It's not worth it. Not even close.
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:39 PM   #2
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Fictional league? I have played out thousands of games in the last decade and not had anything close to that experience. There have been a couple saves that got kind of out of whack stats wise but it ended up being my fault for messing with settings.

Something isn't right with how your game is set up because what you are describing is almost impossible with a properly functioning game.
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Old 08-20-2018, 02:27 AM   #3
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Fun fact, baseball is not a deterministic game. Maybe try chess.
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Old 08-20-2018, 07:52 AM   #4
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The game is set up so that you can have any sort of league scoring environment you want, from deadball baseball to an arena baseball league where teams score 100 runs a game or anything in between. The way the game does that is by allowing you to set and control the modifiers that control how many runs teams score on a league wide basis and how many hits, errors, walks etc each league has.

If these are changed though, by accident or through error, they can result in strange things happening, like what you're describing.

It sounds like somehow your league modifiers have gotten out of whack and you're dealing with the effects of that.

So in the league where this is happening, can you go to game > game settings > league settings > stats and ai.

What are the modifiers there? Are they mostly grouped around 1? Are there some that are really high or low, above say 2.0 or below 0.1?

On that screen, please take a screenshot of your settings and post it here. Or, just reset your league modifiers to 1.0 for everything. That won;t be perfect, but it will result in a pretty realistic modern league, without any of the wackiness you're currently experiencing.
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Old 08-20-2018, 07:30 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rassy7 View Post
This game, and I choose to say game instead of simulation or any synonym that could imply any of even the most vague similarities to an actual baseball game, dramatically suffers from lack of control in vital areas.

I am only a couple months into the game, both IRL and in my season and I can already tell the game suffers irreparably from lack of control. People won't shut up about how deep and wide its is, but absolutely none of that matters if the gameplay during games itself is not usable. It is unconditionally impossible to make pitchers throw strikes and it destroys the game. What, I wonder, do the devs believe the value and power of "manager" is? Managers are Gods on baseball fields. In this game, they are casual spectators at best.

I can't count how many times I've scored close to 20 runs and lost. WTF? My pitchers are racking up 50 pitches in the 2nd inning--good pitchers too. They walk everyone--opposing pitchers AB after AB. They almost never make an out before a full count. Strikeout? Forget it. These guys refuse to throw third strikes. They won't do it and there's not way to force it. Ridiculous!

Even real life managers can say, "Hey, just get one over the plate here. Take something off of it if you have to. Let the defense do its job. If it goes over the fence, it goes over the fence, but throw a strike."

The code must be riddled with if statements like the following:

If count.strikes < 3 then
throwNoStrikes()
end

That commentary is as foreign to this game as the concept of 3D graphics. 4-star groundball pitchers give up dinger after dinger in the opening innings, repeatedly. What's the point of planning, evaluating numbers and statistics if they all go out the window when the game starts. Don't believe me? Try simming the same game 25 times. Same players, same weather, same everything and the score and stats will vary wildly. Everything is this game is a crapshoot. Nothing we do has any impact.

Football Manager is an amazing creation that is as deep, if not deeper, AND provides unparalleled, in-match control which both affects the outcome of the match AND is visible, possible to verify and not lacking in its breadth of control.

People new to this game, if you can, return it and get whatever amount you paid. It's not worth it. Not even close.
I have to wonder where your idea that managers are gods on baseball fields comes from? From what I've seen, most evidence suggests that managers make very little impact on outcomes of baseball teams. A really good manager might push his team to a handful more wins (which, admittedly, might make all the difference) and a really bad one might cost his team a handful. But I've never seen any evidence of anything more significant than that.
And I really have to question this idea that a manager (or pitching coach, for that matter) going out to the mound to forcefully insist that the pitcher just needs to throw a strike, even if it is a very hit-able strike, actually usually alters the chances that the pitcher will accomplish that. Obviously, that's probably what the pitcher's already trying to do. Now it's really in their head. Maybe the next one is right down the middle. Maybe it sails to the backstop.

But yeah, what it sounds like you are experiencing, that's a problem. And if that is what we all experienced OOTP would have lost all of its customers years ago.
So, I hope someone is able to help you figure out what's happened here.

Last edited by BirdWatcher; 08-20-2018 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 08-20-2018, 10:09 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by BirdWatcher View Post
But yeah, what it sounds like you are experiencing, that's a problem. And if that is what we all experienced OOTP would have lost all of its customers years ago.
So, I hope someone is able to help you figure out what's happened here.
Hopefully he comes back. People are willing to help him out but it seems like he's already checked out.
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Old 08-20-2018, 11:06 PM   #7
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i enjoyed this. thank you
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Old 08-20-2018, 11:33 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Lukas Berger View Post
So in the league where this is happening, can you go to game > game settings > league settings > stats and ai.
Attached. Had no idea this was even an option. Just started the most vanilla game I could, I thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukas Berger View Post
The game is set up so that you can have any sort of league scoring environment you want ...
Ideal game would be one without a strike zone the size of a walnut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westheim View Post
Fun fact, baseball is not a deterministic game. Maybe try chess.
I did not find this fun.

None of this, however, solves the fundamental issue I have here: There is no control over the pitching. I know someone questioned my likening of a manager to a god on the field, but what he says goes, regardless. Even in MLB The Show, if I opt to coach a game, I can tell the catcher to ask for it "high and inside" or "low and away" in addition to options to "pitch aggressively" or "pitch around." None of those exist in this game.

In fact, I have found no difference whatsoever among pitching with the 1, 2, 3, and 4 keys. Yes, I even included hold runner. The only pitches I can actually use to draw a verifiable distinction are pitches out and hittin' the guy. Makes no difference if I tell him to pitch around or just to pitch. I could close my eyes and throw a battery at the keyboard and if it hit any of those buttons, the effect would be the same. Fact is, this game takes an existential approach to pitching commands. The only real options are to pitch or not to pitch. Either way, the pitcher on the other team takes his base and the skinny kid atop the lineup knocks it out of the park behind him.

I could pick the laces that go in the shoes of my AA bench coach, but I can't tell my top of the rotation guy to brush back the three hole hitter in the majors. The games needs a paradigm shift of sorts. It's out of balance.
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Old 08-21-2018, 01:12 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by rassy7 View Post
I could pick the laces that go in the shoes of my AA bench coach, but I can't tell my top of the rotation guy to brush back the three hole hitter in the majors. The games needs a paradigm shift of sorts. It's out of balance.
So, I can't tell whether your settings are just all jacked up or whether you have merely had a run of bad luck and are extrapolating from a small sample size.
I'm starting to think that you are just looking for a different game than this one. A lot of what you describe sounds more like one would get in a traditional video game. I'm not sure that actually mirrors real-life very well, but if that is what you are looking for then by all means that is the kind of game you should seek out. The thing is, in real life, a pitcher might be instructed as to where and what to pitch (though, in truth, this is usually a collaborative process between pitcher and catcher) but that doesn't mean that is where the ball will go. The better the pitcher the more often the pitch does what he and the catcher want. But even then it's far from all the time.
I don't think that OOTP can do all of the things that it does, the things that most of the people who play it want it to do, and try to replicate what you are describing as well. But I would suggest a few things:
1) Maybe something is wrong with your settings that is creating some wacky results and with those fixed you will feel more comfortable with the game, or
2) Maybe this just isn't the game for you but that certainly isn't the same as the game being out of balance or needing a paradigm shift. A lot of very smart and knowledgeable baseball people enjoy the heck out of the game as it is. (Which is why I am inclined to believe that something is out of whack in your settings or you are over-reacting to a small sample size.)
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Old 08-21-2018, 08:33 AM   #10
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Yeah I tend to agree with birdwatcher. At the end of the day, this game might just not be what the original poster is looking for.

OOTP is first and foremost a management simulation. While there's definitely an argument to be made that the manager has input into specific pitches (such as pre-game planning of a strategy vs a particular hitter), that really does fall primarily on the pitcher, catcher, and even pitching coach in real life. So, it's not that OOTP does this poorly. It's just not something that OOTP was designed to do.
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Old 08-21-2018, 11:51 AM   #11
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I'm shocked so many people are so Ok with this.

I understand the game prioritizes management. That's why I dove in. I'm on of those guys. I reported baseball for a while. I understand that level and always found the EA and 2K products lacking in that area, but it's unfulfilling to carry out what I know, in real life, to be the right courses of action and turn around and watch the team fall all over itself.

I haven't yet found a way to manage a team and watch a simulation, like I can with one of my minor league teams. In my mind, this is a necessary measure for troubleshooting and validation. I'd like to watch how the CPU uses my strategy settings (with my exact players) to generate outcomes seemingly only available to simulations. In other words, results the simulations can achieve do not appear possible if I actually "play the game." I've never liked simulations for that reason. Even in football manager, I coach the full 90 every game. It took me more than a year to hit 100 games, but win or loss, it was my doing that generated the result, not some computer's algorithm.

If baseball is not a deterministic game, why even attempt to produce a game like this? Human decisions have a profound impact on the game of baseball and if they are omitted from this simulation, then really, the best for which can ever hope is to see the computer run the algorithm that favors our team repeatedly; Let's also hope this is especially true in wild card and playoff series games. Human choices must matter.

I've attached a pitching line from a box score from a game last year. Brandon Finnegan's line is representative of my starters. In this outting, he managed to face 15 batters over two innings, throwing almost 70 pitches with balls and strikes nearly even. He gave up only one earned run, but walked five. The K's in there, I haven't seen. Imagine the bullpen situation starts like this over and over would cause. I have almost no bench hitters because I have to stack my bullpen after starts like these on the settings I attached earlier.

In real life, games like this are a relative rarity. In OOTP, they are commonplace, at least in my experience and nothing I can do, nothing, will change this in during the course of the game. All the developers have built into this game is the option for me to remove him and replace him with another pitcher who invariable, repeats the disaster. That's the frustration. In real life, the manager, the catcher, they have options in the game to slow him down, affect his rhythm—change the outcome. After a couple months of playing, I realize this very real, and essential piece of the game of baseball is missing entirely from OOTP. It's not a priority. It's this, which I can't believe people are so willing to accept.

While I have you here, couple other notable and frustrating oversights:

1) To assemble a complete list here, let's add the inability to watch a simulated game played by a team I manage. My only option is to actually manage it. As a subitem to this, how about an option to tell hitters to hit ("swing away") unless told otherwise. It's gets pretty annoying sitting at my computer hitting 1 over and over through these games. Be nice to drink a cup of coffee and watch them play until I need to step in for some reason, especially when my team is up to bat.

2) Obviously, to add some measure of in-game control over pitching decisions and pitchers. The mound visit isn't adding anything. It might be a good place for some of that deterministic business we keep talking about. Expand the commentary there. Supply some choices for a brief dialogue—something to affect change.

3) How about the ability to affect player development, eh? For instance, if I have a low-control pitcher with otherwise great attributes, I might assign him work on his control. It's not an in-game control measure, but it is, none the less a control measure. That, too, is missing. Best I can hope for here is to sign a pitching coach who does well with finesse pitchers his age. Another crapshoot.

4) Expanded morale settings to at the very least give managers something more with which to work—anything to affect the way a player plays—a pitcher pitches.

5) What about the ability to allow minor league managers to set lineups and pitching order (so we don't have to worry about adjusting it for tired guys and injuries every single day), but include the option to issue minor league managers orders, such as "hit this guy fourth" or "play this guy at 2nd" so we can have even the tiniest control over their individual development. Right now, options are to do it ourselves or go with the those managers think makes sense.

We spend hours sifting through data, reworking contracts, structuring trades and when we get into the 20-minute game, there is nothing. Devs need to spend some time turning nothing into something. The game is where it all plays out. It's what actually matters, but it has apparently been labeled a low priority. It's unbelievable.

I'll start a new game and try to tweak the settings a bit. It appears my only option is to create a system in which my pitchers are so dominate, the lack of control won't be necessary. Not sure how much fun that will be, but it's the last hope.

For others considering this game, explore my list of issues and the repeated suggestions that this game might not be for me. If this list concerns you, OOTP might not be right for you either.
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Old 08-21-2018, 12:06 PM   #12
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I'm shocked so many people are so Ok with this.
I'm shocked that you aren't enjoying the game the way it is. I am also shocked that there are people who don't share my opinions on politics, religion, movies, clothing, and ice cream flavors! Why doesn't everyone want exactly what I want?
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Old 08-21-2018, 12:52 PM   #13
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Wait, you're playing as the Reds? I'm sure Bryan Price wishes the pitchers didn't walk as many people or give up as many homers either or he'd still have a job. I'm a huge Reds fan, but I know their pitching has been terrible for awhile now. Brandon Finnegan is in AAA right now because he walks guys and can't go deep into games. I think they even moved him to the bullpen in Louisville.

What you're seeing seems pretty realistic to me.
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Old 08-21-2018, 01:57 PM   #14
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I can't cover all of this right now. But several of the things you want actually do exist in the game.

1. You can watch a simulation of a game for a team you are managing. I'm not in front of my OOTP machine to give you the exact steps, but basically, IIRC, when you are in the pre-game screen, there is an option there to choose who is managing your team. It will be set to you by default, but there should be a drop-down where you can select your bench coach and effectively give him the reins for the game. Then you should be able to just sit and watch the game.

2. I don’t disagree that I’d like some more interaction options, whether it’s when visiting the mound, or interacting with an unhappy player. I’ve made a suggestion this year that we get greater influence over player development as well. Those are great ideas and worth Markus and crew considering. I still don’t agree with the “pitch high and tight” thing, because in my mind that’s not what a manager does, but we can agree to disagree on that! And you’re welcome to post suggestions in the suggestions forum for the dev team to consider as well.

3. We do have some control over players in the minors. Again, not in front of my machine, but there is an option to force start certain players.

When I get a chance I’ll try to find where those specific options are and update my post.

How tech savvy are you? Is there somewhere you could zip up your saved game file for us to look at? I’d like to poke around and see if we can figure out why you’re seeing such peculiar results.
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Old 08-21-2018, 01:59 PM   #15
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I'm shocked so many people are so Ok with this.



I've attached a pitching line from a box score from a game last year. Brandon Finnegan's line is representative of my starters. In this outting, he managed to face 15 batters over two innings, throwing almost 70 pitches with balls and strikes nearly even. He gave up only one earned run, but walked five. The K's in there, I haven't seen. Imagine the bullpen situation starts like this over and over would cause. I have almost no bench hitters because I have to stack my bullpen after starts like these on the settings I attached earlier.

In real life, games like this are a relative rarity. In OOTP, they are commonplace, at least in my experience and nothing I can do, nothing, will change this in during the course of the game. All the developers have built into this game is the option for me to remove him and replace him with another pitcher who invariable, repeats the disaster.

For others considering this game, explore my list of issues and the repeated suggestions that this game might not be for me. If this list concerns you, OOTP might not be right for you either.
It appears that you and I may be playing very different games. I play out every game for my team in my current fictional league, letting the AI manage based upon my strategy settings and 7-day lineups, stepping in just occasionally to force a pitching change. I haven't experienced anything like what you are describing here. I don't presume that my experience is universal. However, based upon the evidence from others here it would appear that my experience doesn't vary widely from the norm.
I am sorry that you have had such a bad experience. I can't explain it and I won't attempt to try. I would simply caution you though that it might not be wise to presume that your experience is universal either.
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Old 08-21-2018, 04:25 PM   #16
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I could pick the laces that go in the shoes of my AA bench coach, but I can't tell my top of the rotation guy to brush back the three hole hitter in the majors. The games needs a paradigm shift of sorts. It's out of balance.
Posting something like this and at the same time lauding FM for its attention to detail makes me wonder whether you can actually be serious at all or whether your perception is way off. FM, the game that constantly requires you to click silly buttons to pamper your whiny animated millionaires' greedy hands, and then will still send you on random 5-game losing streaks against horrendous teams, just to mess with you.

Most of the time in OOTP at least, you can see it coming. You can even see an injury coming sometimes. And have you ever watched a real ballgame at all? Pitchers will sometimes not be able to throw a strike for whatever reason. And in the game ...!

Quote:
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I'm shocked so many people are so Ok with this.

[exceedingly long rant]
You clamor for human decisions in the game, but you also want the game to go on automatically while you cuddle your coffee unless you decide to want to step in right now. How is the game supposed to know when you want to step in? The next guy complains about the three second delay between plays then...

I find mound visits will occasionally reel in a wayward pitcher. Sometimes they will not. Guess what, just like real baseball. But then again you talk about wanting your pitchers do be subject to deterministic behavior, which is absurd from the start.

What do you really want? A "get strikeout" button?

Pitchers go on hot and cold streaks all the time, just like hitters. Sometimes they are cold all at the same time. That happens. In the game and in MLB. Same for hitters. The actual Mets went 5-21 despite serviceable pitching in June. Whoah, MLB is out of control ...!

Finally, you stated right at the beginning that you only got "a couple of months" into the season. Small sample size sounds familiar to you? So your guys have like what, ten starts? Depending on your team, they were probably due for a few bad ones, then.
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Old 08-21-2018, 04:38 PM   #17
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Regarding my post above, here's how to watch a game instead of managing:

1. Select "Play Ball" when you have a game on today's calendar.

2. On the options screen that appears, under your team's controls, it has your profile name pre-populated. Select this option:



You can also choose to only delegate some aspects of the game using the drop-downs below there.

3. Start the game.

You will also have an option of whether you want the game to pause between plays as well.

Watch and enjoy (we hope).
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Old 08-21-2018, 04:47 PM   #18
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For more precise control over players in the minors, try this:

1. Go to your team's "Team Home Screen" (through the menu or by clicking the home icon on the right side of the screen):



2. Select the Strategy tab, then the Player Strategy sub-tab.

3. Drag a player whose strategy you wish to specify to the lower left box.

4. Look carefully at the options in the lower left and lower right:



You can do this for any team in your organization. Some options that you may find particularly helpful include:

- Force start a player at a particular position. This is good for teaching a prospect a particular position and ensuring they get lots of at-bats.

- Lock to current minor league team. This is good to prevent the AI from moving the player around.

Obviously, these options are not all-encompassing. But this can give you more control over individuals. Pitchers have slightly different options as well. You can enforce pitch counts or force them into a particular role.

So, there are two features you didn't think were there that you have at your disposal.

Again, if you can post your league file somewhere, I'd be willing to poke around to see if there's something obviously peculiar going on.

Thanks!
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Old 08-21-2018, 10:38 PM   #19
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Thanks

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I don’t disagree that I’d like some more interaction options, whether it’s when visiting the mound, or interacting with an unhappy player. I’ve made a suggestion this year that we get greater influence over player development as well. Those are great ideas and worth Markus and crew considering.
Right? Managing a player's emotions doesn't end when the games begins. Someone else pointed that out as well.

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I still don’t agree with the “pitch high and tight” thing, because in my mind that’s not what a manager does, but we can agree to disagree on that!
Fair enough

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On the options screen that appears, under your team's controls, it has your profile name pre-populated. Select this option:
I assume this is temporary/reversible.

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Originally Posted by battists View Post
- Force start a player at a particular position. This is good for teaching a prospect a particular position and ensuring they get lots of at-bats.

- Lock to current minor league team. This is good to prevent the AI from moving the player around.
Right. This is exactly what I was looking for, but would never have stumbled up on it on my own. It is, in my estimation, just about all we can do to influence the development of a player, at least with respect to development rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westheim View Post
But then again you talk about wanting your pitchers do be subject to deterministic behavior, which is absurd from the start.
Absurd? No. At its worst, plausible. My belief is likely at least. How a catcher, pitching coach, manager or any other human chooses to interact with a player (say, a pitcher) can have a very real outcome on his performance. I feel comfortable signing off now and handing this argument over to NIH. Contact info available at the end of this post.

"Our findings indicate that observers use the perceived emotional displays of professional pitchers during baseball games to arrive at predictions regarding objective qualities of the pitch as well as behavioral responses of the batter. This conclusion suggests that professional sports performance is influenced by emotional expressions and implies that performance can potentially be improved by taking this into account. Being able to identify and unravel the information that is conveyed by emotional displays could very well lead to a 'home run.'"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4754798/
DOI: 10.3389/fpsyg.2016.00178

"The present results suggest that HRP [high-ranking players] may demonstrate elevated cingulate activation and lower temporal cortex activation in response to scenes depicting baseball errors."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5508989/
DOI: 10.1055/s-0033-1363235

"These results suggest that information about an opponent can influence the mechanisms underlying pressure-induced performance errors."

http://journals.humankinetics.com/do...r_pub%3dpubmed
DOI: 10.1123/jsep.2016-0035

^^^ Just from the first page ^^^

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Old 08-22-2018, 06:14 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rassy7 View Post
Absurd? No. At its worst, plausible. My belief is likely at least. How a catcher, pitching coach, manager or any other human chooses to interact with a player (say, a pitcher) can have a very real outcome on his performance. I feel comfortable signing off now and handing this argument over to NIH. Contact info available at the end of this post.
I suggest you look up what determinism actually means, then come back to admit how wrong you are.

See, I even technically agree with you, in parts. Part of your bolded main statement from the opening rant:

Quote:
It is unconditionally impossible to make pitchers throw strikes
Yes. Yes, it is!

For a start, it is not possible to talk sense into a pitcher that is in a 3-2 count with the bags full to get him to throw a strike on the corner. You can not trigger a perfect strike with key words and a pat on the bum. He might still have the jitters. He might release the ball a tad early. Or a tad late. In one case he misses badly and walks in a run. In the second case he gets the perfect strike. In the third case, it's a strike, but the batter hits it for a 3-run double. Maybe he balks in a run.

This is a certain sort of randomness, therefore the game is *obviously* non-deterministic. Hence why I suggested chess from the start if you want your actions to have expectable results. Your a1 rook is always going to take the unprotected a5 pawn. There is no way the pawn fends off an attack. But that batter can and will hit a 3-run double if the pitcher released the ball a tad late. Or maybe he will take it for strike three anyway?

Which brings me back to the small sample size. How many games have you even played, and with that I mean played out (simming does not count) in the game at all? What is your team? Who are the pitchers? Post your staff, heir ratings, and their stats instead of yammering.

Some pitchers inherently suck and they will never get a strike three when they really need it. But you know what? The game needs sucky pitchers. MLB is full of sucky pitchers.

Quote:
It is unconditionally impossible to make pitchers throw strikes and it destroys the game.
This I disagree with, fervently. It does not destroy the game that you don't have a "throw strike" button. It is what makes the game like actual baseball.
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