Closer use.. saves issue from 6.11 - Page 2

disposableheros · 11-21-2004, 05:30 AM

maybe the lack of response is because not enough people are adding their findings, so...

we just started discussing this in the KBL too. some anecdotal evidence and kq76 did a quick and dirty check and it appears there is a problem.

http://kbl-ootp-online.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=643

swat-spas · 11-23-2004, 11:54 AM

I found that if you slot the closer into the setup slot as well (presuming relatively equal players) that he will get more relief appearances in save opportunities and therefore, more saves. However, this only helps slightly if you have two very equal relievers. If you have a very good one and one who is just good, it helps alot.

Case in point, the all time league for which i am testing ratings. Wetteland leads his league with around 30 saves each year, his setup guy is Larry Andersen, who gets maybe 7 or 8, in relatively limited action too (20-30 games or so). In the other league, Gregg Olson and Jeff Nelson are splitting the duty, since the ratings are about equal (i guess?, nelson doesn't know where its going, but otherwise.. ).. with both getting around 20 each year, both getting somewhere between 40-50 games. I use normal endurance and obviously I have good starters (they are all all-stars), so they generally finish 10-15 games a year, which keeps the relief appearances down somewhat. Mop up guys get into games alot more in this test league than the actual one i play with (all stars against average players tend to blow games out)..

Taking those factors aside, the fact remains that the saves are much more spread out across the team than in previous simulations, and the slotting position does not seem to matter; the game simply picks who it feels should be pitching at a given time. The first middle reliever is ignored on occasion in favour of another without the first being tired (both are RH), the same is true of setup guys, and the closer slot in particular seems to be ignored. He still appears in about as many games (50 ish once I figured out the setup slot situation), but other pitchers are definitely picking up alot of stray saves for some reason. He can't be that tired if he only works every 3rd game for usually 1 inning at a time.

I've simmed this out over 5 seasons. It happens pretty much everytime, unless there are injuries (which there appear to be none of signifigance)

remington · 11-23-2004, 02:54 PM

Steve, could you alert Markus to this.
In a deadball era league I am in we are seeing something similar. Granted, we aren't through the first month of the season, but we have some teams who have setup men with all of the team saves and closers who have yet to pitch.

I have also noticed from a solo league that priority has little to do with how you slot the pitchers, and often the number 3 and 4 guys in my middle reliief rolls get more innings/games than the 1 and 2 guys.

Generally speaking, the saves go to the closer, so long as he is the best reliever on the staff. But if my setup man is better than my closer, that doesn't mean I want the setup man to come in for a save until after my designated closer has had the chance.

Jabs · 11-23-2004, 04:52 PM

swat-spas & remington-

Thank you for your input on this matter. Hopefully someone will notice and take some action on this.

There is one other thing I have noticed in regards to pitching staffs. WHen setting up the minor league staffs, I usually use the "Generate Auto-Staff" button and then make any minor changes that I see necessary. So when I go and hit the button, the slots all fill in, except for #4 MR. No matter how many pitchers I have at a level, the game never fills in the MR #4 slot. I have had it where I have say 9 RP at a level, the game will put 2 Mopup, 3 MR, 2 Setup, and 1 Closer on the staff....and completely leave a RP off the staff!!! Why would this happen? I'm not sure if anyone else has ever posted anything on this, but I couldn't find anything when I looked.

Aordolin · 11-24-2004, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swat-spas

I found that if you slot the closer into the setup slot as well (presuming relatively equal players) that he will get more relief appearances in save opportunities and therefore, more saves. However, this only helps slightly if you have two very equal relievers. If you have a very good one and one who is just good, it helps alot.

I posted data on this before I am going to repost it since it was in another thread and may get lost. But what was suggested I tried and number of saves did increase, but not alot. Agian though this is all beside the point, if the AI isnt going to use the roles in an appropriate way then way have them at all? Bullpen use is totally out of whack, it was even before the last patch.

There is a much greater issue here. It is my opinion from having followed baseball all my life that the setup guys, should be the best pitchers in your pen besides the closer, so they should be getting the lions share of relief apperances, but in most cases the setup man gets the fewest innings in the staff quite frequently, its dependant on how good the starting pitching is ofcourse, but in a 154 game season I often see MR with 70-100 innings with my settings, and setupmen with 30-40, much too low. The only kind of pitcher whos innings are that low are situational pitchers, lefty/righty specialists (almost always lefty in real baseball). In the future I would definately like to see an improvment on bullpen AI or atleast some controls that can allow users to configure it some, maybe a slider on how pitchers are used in different situations, (which pitcher gets used). Though right now saves needs to be fixed, the save chances need to be back to atleast 80% and even better to 90% for players assigned in the closer role.

Here is my sim data promised earlier:

Ok I simmed some more seasons and got some numbers that should prove interesting. This is what I did, I simmed the same season over agian 5 straight times with each set up. I am using 5 man rotations with relievers being used "OFTEN" and pitcher endurance at "NORMAL". I simmed 5 years with the staffs set for my 16 team league the way I normally set them in the past. Next, I set the closer in the number 1 setup man spot in addition to being the closer and putting that setup man in the 2nd setup spot. Last I installed a previous patch 6.03 (I think there was one after that and before 6.10/6.11 but I couldnt find it) and used my staffs the way I had in example 1.

Sim #1 Normal Staff setup using 6.11

154 game (16 Teams) season total league saves 602 (average over 5 seasons) League saves leader had average of 27 saves.

I excluded closers who got injured over the course of the season and their relievers so as not to skew the percentages. I broke it up by CLOSER, SETUP, MR.

Closers: 285
Setup: 123
Relievers: 115
54.4%

So basically, not factoring in blown saves, the player assigned as the team closer got the save chance 54.4% of the time.

Sim #2 Closers assigned to Setup 1 role as well as closer role. Setup1 moved to 2

154 game (16 Teams) season total league saves 551 (average over 5 seasons). Saves leader averaged 29 saves.

Agian injured closers and there relievers were excluded from calculations

Closers: 313
Setup #2: 92
Relievers: 81
64.4%

This was a little better but as you can see relievers are still getting way to many chances.

Sim #3 Same as Sim #1 only using patch version 6.03

154 game (16 Teams) season total league saves 608 (average over 5 seasons). Saves leader averaged 38 saves.

Closers: 450
Setup #1: 38
Relievers: 70
80.6%

This is what I had been used to in the previous 16 seasons I had simmed prior to installing the 6.11 patch. The relievers still seem to ve getting a few too many chances but you can see a dramatic difference in before and after.

I was curious at what the save stats were from baseball from this last season. I am going to throw out the stats for teams that did not have an established closer for the entire season due to injury, ineffectiveness, or trades.

Smoltz 44 of 48
Foulke 32 of 36
Graves 41 of 47
Benitez 47 of 53
Gagne 45 of 51
Kolb 39 of 42
Nathan 44 of 48
Looper 29 of 31
Rivera 53 of 59
Mesa 43 of 46
Hoffman 41 of 44
Isringhausen 47 of 57
Baez 30 of 35
Cordero 49 of 52

This averages out to 90% on the dot. I only took the above players because there were the only ones who played the entire season as the number one closer. I am sure if someone wanted to break down the numbers for others before they were hurt, traded.. etc those numbers would match these.

Hope these numbers will prove useful.

Aordolin · 12-06-2004, 01:36 PM

Wow its been 6 weeks now.. and still no official response. So heres another bump. Fix it!

diesel230 · 12-07-2004, 07:22 PM

still nothing on this matter?

copper888 · 12-07-2004, 08:56 PM

It seems pretty clear that this is an obvious problem...In my online historical league my set-up man is 7 for 9 in save opportunities and my closer is 0 for 0, and he's only pitched 3.1 innings on the season, and it's the beginning of July. These numbers are unacceptable, and in my opinion, ridiculous.

hefalumps · 12-07-2004, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diesel230

still nothing on this matter?

From what Steve says in one of his "Attention" stickies in the tech support forum, if no one official posts on a topic, it means that no one official has anything useful to add to the discussion. So, I interpret the lack of response from any official OOTP folks as saying "Yeah, we know about it, and we're looking into it." That's my two cents.

But I agree, it would be nice if there were an official bug list or something so that

1) People could see if a bug they found has already been reported so we don't get a bunch of duplicate bug posts
2) People could see if the bug has been acknowledged by anyone official along with its status.

However, bug lists of this nature are rarely seen with commercial products, only open source stuff. So I don't necessarily expect that OOTP should be doing this (can you imagine EA doing something like that - we're lucky to get patches from them at all) - but it sure would make life easier for those of us who post bugs and want to know what's up with them. But I guess the quickness with which some issues get fixed in OOTP along with the great support community here might be spoiling us a bit.

Okay now I'm rambling... sorry.

Jabs · 12-08-2004, 05:17 AM

I agree that it is rare to see commercial products have a complete bug list for everyone to post to, but is OOTP a regular commercial product like an EA game? I don't think so. Look at the community that visits this forum daily. They all obviously care about this game and want to see it continue to grow and get better.

I don't want to speak for everyone else here, but I am just hoping to see some sort of acknowledgement that says OOTP definitely sees there is a problem here and they are going to fix it. I mean, how many different people have to post the same problem before it becomes an "official" problem or bug? I know it was mentioned that this would be posted in a beta thread....any word how the beta testing is going on this? Any word on anything regarding this issue?

Steve Kuffrey · 12-08-2004, 06:22 AM

It has been noted in the beta forum and brought to Markus' attention, but no idea if any action will be taken soon. Not saying that there won't be but can't promise either.

Aordolin · 01-07-2005, 02:01 PM

bumping this up so this issue isnt forgotton about and just accepted, even though ive stopped playing the game because of this. was a great game until you broke it.

Jestor · 01-11-2005, 04:04 AM

I might be able to shed some light on this issue.

In the previews I've been doing for my Octopus League, I've noticed that the best relievers on the staffs of the computer controlled teams are being put in as the main setup guys and the the guys who should be setting up are being listed as the closers.

I'm suspecting something is going on where the computer is valuing the first setup slot over the closer, as someone suggested earlier in the thread.

Terpripken · 01-11-2005, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jestor

I might be able to shed some light on this issue.

In the previews I've been doing for my Octopus League, I've noticed that the best relievers on the staffs of the computer controlled teams are being put in as the main setup guys and the the guys who should be setting up are being listed as the closers.

I'm suspecting something is going on where the computer is valuing the first setup slot over the closer, as someone suggested earlier in the thread.

I've noticed the same thing. To combat this in my online leagues, I have signed or traded for the equivalent of two closers, preferably one southpaw and one righty. That way i figure either way i have a closer come in when i need him....it's still kinda annoying though.

disposableheros · 01-11-2005, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terpripken

I've noticed the same thing. To combat this in my online leagues, I have signed or traded for the equivalent of two closers, preferably one southpaw and one righty. That way i figure either way i have a closer come in when i need him....it's still kinda annoying though.

ive put the guy i want to close in the #1 setup and closer spot and it seems to be working fine

Jestor · 01-11-2005, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disposableheros

ive put the guy i want to close in the #1 setup and closer spot and it seems to be working fine

I suppose this workaround can be used... but meh! How annoying!

disposableheros · 01-11-2005, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jestor

I suppose this workaround can be used... but meh! How annoying!

i agree. shouldnt have to use a workaround, but....

cknox0723 · 01-13-2005, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disposableheros

ive put the guy i want to close in the #1 setup and closer spot and it seems to be working fine

Problem with this is, frequently the closer will come in for the seventh or eighth, as a setup man would -- and get pulled for the ninth, normally for the #1 or #2 middle reliever. If this happened logically -- say, in games where you're up by 3 -- it wouldn't be that big of a deal, but I often see my middle relievers getting saves in one-run games -- or better still, blowing them.

I'm leaving my other solo league -- meaning, of course, the one that hasn't been ruined by bugs like this and a shoddy waiver system -- on 6.03 for now. That probably means until OOTP7, but I suppose it'll have to do.

Elendil · 01-13-2005, 05:29 PM

Yep, what I've noticed is that the closer is now used much more as statheads would like - a "relief ace" who comes into the 8th and 9th innings of tied games or games in which the team is just ahead by a run or two. Sometimes the closer gets exhausted by this use and has to be taken out in the 9th. Never seen the game make my closer come in during the 7th, but I frequently see the closer come in in the 8th, even if the setup man who starts the 8th or finished the 7th is having no problems.

marc420 · 01-14-2005, 04:55 PM

Funny, but the AI seems to be managing the way I like to manage.

One of the times that will get me throwing beer at a real-life manager on TV is when he brings in his setup man, who then pitches an absolutely awesome 8th inning. 3 up, 3 down, pitcher completely dominating the hitters. Then, because its the ninth inning, and the book seems to say bring in the closer, this pitcher gets pulled from the game, and the "closer" comes in. The beer will then start flying at the TV when this pitcher starts to get hit in the ninth.

Personnally, I've never understood why a manager would pull a perfectly good pitcher from the game. If he blew 'em away in the 8th, why not let em pitch the ninth? If I've got a pitcher on the mound the other team can't seem to hit, I'm of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" frame of mind.

I manage all my team's games, and I'm not real concerned how well I match real-life stats. I've got a "set-up man" and a "closer". But I might often pitch the setup man for 2 innings to finish a game. Then go to the closer earlier in another game to get him some work too.

But I understand why the people who track stats would want the game to match modern era real-life stats.

Hmmm, I wonder if the "era" picked would have any impact on this. The "closer" is a relatively recent development. Saves weren't a stat until 1970 or so. And that's largely because the relief specialist didn't really develop as an idea until about that time. And the notion of a team keeping a pitcher just for saves and only pitching him in the ninth inning (mostly, but sometimes in the 8th) didn't really develop until that time or even a little later. And I'd imagine for awhile in the 70's, not all managers did this. The phrase "bullpen by committee" rings a bell. And I think some managers used to do this successfully. You don't see that much nowadays though.

11-21-2004, 05:30 AM	#21
disposableheros Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,332	maybe the lack of response is because not enough people are adding their findings, so... we just started discussing this in the KBL too. some anecdotal evidence and kq76 did a quick and dirty check and it appears there is a problem. http://kbl-ootp-online.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=643 __________________ 2 Wild Cards, 11 Division Champs, 4 League Champs, 3 World Champs, and 3 Best GM awards Baseball Maelstrom - New York Mets - 180-149 .547 Corporate League Baseball - Coke Buzz - 889-649 .578 Western Hemisphere Baseball League - Santiago Saints - 672-793 .459 Record - 2428-2271 .517

11-23-2004, 02:54 PM	#23
remington Minors (Double A) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 186	Steve, could you alert Markus to this. In a deadball era league I am in we are seeing something similar. Granted, we aren't through the first month of the season, but we have some teams who have setup men with all of the team saves and closers who have yet to pitch. I have also noticed from a solo league that priority has little to do with how you slot the pitchers, and often the number 3 and 4 guys in my middle reliief rolls get more innings/games than the 1 and 2 guys. Generally speaking, the saves go to the closer, so long as he is the best reliever on the staff. But if my setup man is better than my closer, that doesn't mean I want the setup man to come in for a save until after my designated closer has had the chance. __________________ -Chris TWIB - Commish - Cleveland (1884 - present) MCBL - Commish - 50, 55, 59, 65, & 68 World Champion New York Yankees NTBL - Commish - Chicago Cubs (1918 - present)

12-08-2004, 06:22 AM	#31
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,022	It has been noted in the beta forum and brought to Markus' attention, but no idea if any action will be taken soon. Not saying that there won't be but can't promise either. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

01-13-2005, 05:29 PM	#39
Elendil Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the dynasty forum Posts: 2,318	Yep, what I've noticed is that the closer is now used much more as statheads would like - a "relief ace" who comes into the 8th and 9th innings of tied games or games in which the team is just ahead by a run or two. Sometimes the closer gets exhausted by this use and has to be taken out in the 9th. Never seen the game make my closer come in during the 7th, but I frequently see the closer come in in the 8th, even if the setup man who starts the 8th or finished the 7th is having no problems. __________________ Heaven is kicking back with a double Talisker and a churchwarden stuffed with latakia.

11-23-2004, 11:54 AM	#22
swat-spas Minors (Single A) Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 52	I found that if you slot the closer into the setup slot as well (presuming relatively equal players) that he will get more relief appearances in save opportunities and therefore, more saves. However, this only helps slightly if you have two very equal relievers. If you have a very good one and one who is just good, it helps alot. Case in point, the all time league for which i am testing ratings. Wetteland leads his league with around 30 saves each year, his setup guy is Larry Andersen, who gets maybe 7 or 8, in relatively limited action too (20-30 games or so). In the other league, Gregg Olson and Jeff Nelson are splitting the duty, since the ratings are about equal (i guess?, nelson doesn't know where its going, but otherwise.. ).. with both getting around 20 each year, both getting somewhere between 40-50 games. I use normal endurance and obviously I have good starters (they are all all-stars), so they generally finish 10-15 games a year, which keeps the relief appearances down somewhat. Mop up guys get into games alot more in this test league than the actual one i play with (all stars against average players tend to blow games out).. Taking those factors aside, the fact remains that the saves are much more spread out across the team than in previous simulations, and the slotting position does not seem to matter; the game simply picks who it feels should be pitching at a given time. The first middle reliever is ignored on occasion in favour of another without the first being tired (both are RH), the same is true of setup guys, and the closer slot in particular seems to be ignored. He still appears in about as many games (50 ish once I figured out the setup slot situation), but other pitchers are definitely picking up alot of stray saves for some reason. He can't be that tired if he only works every 3rd game for usually 1 inning at a time. I've simmed this out over 5 seasons. It happens pretty much everytime, unless there are injuries (which there appear to be none of signifigance)

11-23-2004, 04:52 PM	#24
Jabs Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pella, IA Posts: 114	swat-spas & remington- Thank you for your input on this matter. Hopefully someone will notice and take some action on this. There is one other thing I have noticed in regards to pitching staffs. WHen setting up the minor league staffs, I usually use the "Generate Auto-Staff" button and then make any minor changes that I see necessary. So when I go and hit the button, the slots all fill in, except for #4 MR. No matter how many pitchers I have at a level, the game never fills in the MR #4 slot. I have had it where I have say 9 RP at a level, the game will put 2 Mopup, 3 MR, 2 Setup, and 1 Closer on the staff....and completely leave a RP off the staff!!! Why would this happen? I'm not sure if anyone else has ever posted anything on this, but I couldn't find anything when I looked.

12-06-2004, 01:36 PM	#26
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	Wow its been 6 weeks now.. and still no official response. So heres another bump. Fix it!

12-07-2004, 07:22 PM	#27
diesel230 All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2004 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 668	still nothing on this matter?

12-07-2004, 08:56 PM	#28
copper888 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 36	It seems pretty clear that this is an obvious problem...In my online historical league my set-up man is 7 for 9 in save opportunities and my closer is 0 for 0, and he's only pitched 3.1 innings on the season, and it's the beginning of July. These numbers are unacceptable, and in my opinion, ridiculous.

12-08-2004, 05:17 AM	#30
Jabs Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pella, IA Posts: 114	I agree that it is rare to see commercial products have a complete bug list for everyone to post to, but is OOTP a regular commercial product like an EA game? I don't think so. Look at the community that visits this forum daily. They all obviously care about this game and want to see it continue to grow and get better. I don't want to speak for everyone else here, but I am just hoping to see some sort of acknowledgement that says OOTP definitely sees there is a problem here and they are going to fix it. I mean, how many different people have to post the same problem before it becomes an "official" problem or bug? I know it was mentioned that this would be posted in a beta thread....any word how the beta testing is going on this? Any word on anything regarding this issue?

01-07-2005, 02:01 PM	#32
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	bumping this up so this issue isnt forgotton about and just accepted, even though ive stopped playing the game because of this. was a great game until you broke it.

01-14-2005, 04:55 PM	#40
marc420 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Terrapin Station Posts: 112	Funny, but the AI seems to be managing the way I like to manage. One of the times that will get me throwing beer at a real-life manager on TV is when he brings in his setup man, who then pitches an absolutely awesome 8th inning. 3 up, 3 down, pitcher completely dominating the hitters. Then, because its the ninth inning, and the book seems to say bring in the closer, this pitcher gets pulled from the game, and the "closer" comes in. The beer will then start flying at the TV when this pitcher starts to get hit in the ninth. Personnally, I've never understood why a manager would pull a perfectly good pitcher from the game. If he blew 'em away in the 8th, why not let em pitch the ninth? If I've got a pitcher on the mound the other team can't seem to hit, I'm of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" frame of mind. I manage all my team's games, and I'm not real concerned how well I match real-life stats. I've got a "set-up man" and a "closer". But I might often pitch the setup man for 2 innings to finish a game. Then go to the closer earlier in another game to get him some work too. But I understand why the people who track stats would want the game to match modern era real-life stats. Hmmm, I wonder if the "era" picked would have any impact on this. The "closer" is a relatively recent development. Saves weren't a stat until 1970 or so. And that's largely because the relief specialist didn't really develop as an idea until about that time. And the notion of a team keeping a pitcher just for saves and only pitching him in the ninth inning (mostly, but sometimes in the 8th) didn't really develop until that time or even a little later. And I'd imagine for awhile in the 70's, not all managers did this. The phrase "bullpen by committee" rings a bell. And I think some managers used to do this successfully. You don't see that much nowadays though.