Possible Trade Crash Fix

[Henry]

Originally Posted by Spielman

*sigh*

Ok, so it's difficult for OOTP developments to support all these old OSs. Yes, we know it's not a huge organization, and Markus faces many challenges in producing the product. Fine.

So how about changing the system requirement page:
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/ootp/sys_req.php
to reflect the fact that these older OS's aren't fully supported?

Bluntly, listing Win98 as the recommended Operating System is misleading at best. If you don't want to support Win98 and other older systems, fine. Just don't tell us you're going to.

-Spielman

I need to clarify something here. OOTPD didn't go into releasing V6 "knowing" that Win9x was a problem. The minimum requirements included Win9x because the few beta testers that ran in that environment didn't have any problems. Once the game was released to hundreds (maybe more) of Windows 9x machines, the issues began to surface.

I would fully expect V7 to list Windows 2000 as the OS minimum.

[Spielman]

Originally Posted by Henry

I need to clarify something here. OOTPD didn't go into releasing V6 "knowing" that Win9x was a problem. The minimum requirements included Win9x because the few beta testers that ran in that environment didn't have any problems. Once the game was released to hundreds (maybe more) of Windows 9x machines, the issues began to surface.

I would fully expect V7 to list Windows 2000 as the OS minimum.

Ahem.

That's great. But you're still selling the game, are you not? And on the system requirements page for the product, the minimum requirement is listed as Windows 95. Still. Right now. At this moment. That's simply not consistent with the attitude that OOTPD is currently taking towards Win9x.

Also, you're talking about the minimum requirements. The _RECOMMENDED_ OS listed is Win98. Still. Right now. At this moment.

What OOTPD anticipated isn't germane to this discussion.

-Spielman

[BigMak]

Spielman - I made the same suggestion when I first encountered the problem months ago. Months later and the bug has not been fixed and the requirements have not been changed. I guess this company is only interested in taking customer's money. Doesn't matter if the game will run without major crashes or not.

[sporr]

Originally Posted by BigMak

I guess this company is only interested in taking customer's money. Doesn't matter if the game will run without major crashes or not.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this statement. If that was truly their only concern, there would be no patches or updates.

[Spielman]

Originally Posted by BigMak

Spielman - I made the same suggestion when I first encountered the problem months ago. Months later and the bug has not been fixed and the requirements have not been changed. I guess this company is only interested in taking customer's money. Doesn't matter if the game will run without major crashes or not.

Mak, I'm with you on this issue. However, I'd like to avoid the hyperbole trap when discussing it. It's not necessary to get emotional, especially since it provides a convenient excuse for ignoring the root complaint.

Fact is, I've purchased a game for which my system met not only the minimum system requirements, but met or exceeded all the system recommendations, yet the game doesn't work with my system. The problems are known, but no notice has been given of an effort to fix the problem, nor have the system requirements and recommendations been updated to reflect the currently understood reality.

That's not emotional, and it's not an attack. It's just what it is.

I'm not a happy customer because of it, and I'm doubly unhappy because the requirements haven't been changed. While changing them wouldn't make me satisfied with my purchase at this time, it would certainly be a demonstration of good faith, in my book. Again, not an attack, just a statement of my opinion on the issue.

-Spielman

[Henry]

Let me point out something at the very beginning of my article....

Starting Point

Let's begin by realizing something, and at least accepting what it means.

"Not all Win99, Win98se, WinME, Win2000, or WinXP customers have crash-related problems"

What this means logically is that "OOTP plus any specific OS" is not the root cause of any crash, otherwise ALL WinME or ALL Win98 customers would experience this problem. If we start with an acceptance of that issue, we can more quickly get to the real causes.

The "fact" that not everyone with Win9x has a problem is proof that OOTP6 does work in that environment. OOTPD cannot be held responsible if you have modified your OS or loaded another application, or never rebuilt your machine since you got it that ultimately is the root of the problem.

As I said in that article, if a Windows 9x machine were built fresh with the minimum HW requirements stated, it would work.

[Spielman]

Originally Posted by Henry

Let me point out something at the very beginning of my article....


The "fact" that not everyone with Win9x has a problem is proof that OOTP6 does work in that environment. OOTPD cannot be held responsible if you have modified your OS or loaded another application, or never rebuilt your machine since you got it that ultimately is the root of the problem.

As I said in that article, if a Windows 9x machine were built fresh with the minimum HW requirements stated, it would work.

That's great. I'm glad that if I ran a fresh install of Win98 and didn't install anything else on the machine that it would probably run OOTP6 correctly.

However, you're selling games to real people who live in the real world, and in the real world, computers have more than one program installed on them.

Win98 is still listed as the RECOMMENDED operating system for OOTP6.

It doesn't appear that you've registered that point yet, since your only reply seems to be to point out that it's theoretically possible for a Win98 machine to run OOTP6 without trouble.

How on earth is it defensible to continue to list Win98 as the recommended level of OS under those circumstances?

-Spielman

[Henry]

Originally Posted by Spielman

That's great. I'm glad that if I ran a fresh install of Win98 and didn't install anything else on the machine that it would probably run OOTP6 correctly.

However, you're selling games to real people who live in the real world, and in the real world, computers have more than one program installed on them.

Win98 is still listed as the RECOMMENDED operating system for OOTP6.

It doesn't appear that you've registered that point yet, since your only reply seems to be to point out that it's theoretically possible for a Win98 machine to run OOTP6 without trouble.

How on earth is it defensible to continue to list Win98 as the recommended level of OS under those circumstances?

-Spielman

The listed "recommended" requirements state "Windows 98 or higher".

If you look at the advertised requirements for most games on the market today, they will include Windows 98 because there is no specific programming that calls for an ability that Win98 cannot provide.

Your also missing the major point I made. It's not a matter of not installing anything else, it's a matter that Windows 9x was simply not as good as "doing it's housework" in the way it handles memory, adding and removing programs, etc. As a result, and because of it's age - and the fact that many Win9x OS machines have probably NOT been rebuilt for a long time - this adds up to many unstable systems. The fact that's it's unstable, or even knowing if a customer has an unstable OS is not anything a supplier could guess or is required to address.

Software manufacturers, in this area, are asked to provide what systems the program (OOTP in this case) will run on. That is based on technical specifications and assumes a machine operating at peak efficiency. A Windows 95 machine with 64MB of RAM and a 1024x768 display will run the game. As a comparison, a Windows 95 machine with only 32MB of memory or without a 1024x768 display will not.

What "condition" the machine or its OS is in is not a variable that software manufacturers are required to speak to.

Granted, OOTP will run better with a Windows 98 machine, and better yet with a Windows 2000 OS, but again, this is the choice of the customer.

I'm sorry your experience hasn't been good, but I am sure that a
clean" Windows 9x machine with the minimum requirements and correct drivers will run OOTP without crashing, assuming there are no hardware issues.

[Spielman]

Originally Posted by Henry

The listed "recommended" requirements state "Windows 98 or higher".

If you look at the advertised requirements for most games on the market today, they will include Windows 98 because there is no specific programming that calls for an ability that Win98 cannot provide.

Your also missing the major point I made. It's not a matter of not installing anything else, it's a matter that Windows 9x was simply not as good as "doing it's housework" in the way it handles memory, adding and removing programs, etc. As a result, and because of it's age - and the fact that many Win9x OS machines have probably NOT been rebuilt for a long time - this adds up to many unstable systems. The fact that's it's unstable, or even knowing if a customer has an unstable OS is not anything a supplier could guess or is required to address.

Software manufacturers, in this area, are asked to provide what systems the program (OOTP in this case) will run on. That is based on technical specifications and assumes a machine operating at peak efficiency. A Windows 95 machine with 64MB of RAM and a 1024x768 display will run the game. As a comparison, a Windows 95 machine with only 32MB of memory or without a 1024x768 display will not.

What "condition" the machine or its OS is in is not a variable that software manufacturers are required to speak to.

Granted, OOTP will run better with a Windows 98 machine, and better yet with a Windows 2000 OS, but again, this is the choice of the customer.

I'm sorry your experience hasn't been good, but I am sure that a
clean" Windows 9x machine with the minimum requirements and correct drivers will run OOTP without crashing, assuming there are no hardware issues.

*chuckle*

I don't believe you're discussing any of this in good faith, Henry.

-Spielman

[Henry]

Originally Posted by Spielman

*chuckle*

I don't believe you're discussing any of this in good faith, Henry.

-Spielman

I'm also sorry your not taking me seriously.

If you think it should be changed, please contact Andreas or Steve.

Henry

[reslfc]

Originally Posted by Henry

As a result, and because of it's age - and the fact that many Win9x OS machines have probably NOT been rebuilt for a long time - this adds up to many unstable systems.

That's very true. My own Windows ME system had more and more frequent problems so I wiped the hard drive clean and started from scratch. It took only 6 days for OOTP 6.13 to crash on a "clean" machine. I also understand the importance of keeping up-to-date backups, not just OOTP leagues but everything I don't want to lose, so if a crash corrupts one of my leagues I won't be as mad as many other folks would be. But I'm just saying, 6 days.

[Henry]

Just for the record, I have both OOTP5 and 6 installed on my Windows 98se laptop and have had only one crash in two years, and that was right after I installed the game Gangland (which I had to take off and reinstall Windows.

[Brando7778]

No disrespect here, this discussion and banter is great *sarcastic tone* But, when is the problem going to be fixed? I've owned the game now for almost 2 and a half months and still have not been able to play it properly. Is the software programmers working on a bug fix for this issue or not, please?

[Henry]

Originally Posted by Brando7778

No disrespect here, this discussion and banter is great *sarcastic tone* But, when is the problem going to be fixed? I've owned the game now for almost 2 and a half months and still have not been able to play it properly. Is the software programmers working on a bug fix for this issue or not, please?

Please re-read my Game Crash Synopsis. As it says there, it is very likely NOT a problem with OOTP.