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Old 03-10-2020, 10:13 AM   #1
ButtersFTW
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Bottlenecks and collections

I saw the stream and heard what Kris had to say about bottlenecks. I disagree it’s a community generated thing.

The problem I see is where the collection is 6 cards and only 6 cards. And let’s say one is a diamond. That diamond is the bottleneck and will be priced to max because there are no other options.

If that same collection were 6 of 10, and the diamond could be 1 of 3 diamonds, you’re not going to have this bottleneck problem because there are multiple rare cards which qualify.

Those 3 diamonds will all go up in value, but not nearly as much as if it were the one diamond situation. This is what needs to stop. No collection should be limited to only one specific rare card. Best example I can think of is the Dusty Baker Atlanta card.
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Old 03-10-2020, 01:46 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by ButtersFTW View Post
I saw the stream and heard what Kris had to say about bottlenecks. I disagree it’s a community generated thing.



The problem I see is where the collection is 6 cards and only 6 cards. And let’s say one is a diamond. That diamond is the bottleneck and will be priced to max because there are no other options.



If that same collection were 6 of 10, and the diamond could be 1 of 3 diamonds, you’re not going to have this bottleneck problem because there are multiple rare cards which qualify.



Those 3 diamonds will all go up in value, but not nearly as much as if it were the one diamond situation. This is what needs to stop. No collection should be limited to only one specific rare card. Best example I can think of is the Dusty Baker Atlanta card.
Or find a way that we can sell a card that is part of the mission without people just buying a card, completing the mission and reselling in 5 minutes.
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Old 03-10-2020, 03:48 PM   #3
allenciox
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Originally Posted by ButtersFTW View Post
I saw the stream and heard what Kris had to say about bottlenecks. I disagree it’s a community generated thing.

The problem I see is where the collection is 6 cards and only 6 cards. And let’s say one is a diamond. That diamond is the bottleneck and will be priced to max because there are no other options.

If that same collection were 6 of 10, and the diamond could be 1 of 3 diamonds, you’re not going to have this bottleneck problem because there are multiple rare cards which qualify.

Those 3 diamonds will all go up in value, but not nearly as much as if it were the one diamond situation. This is what needs to stop. No collection should be limited to only one specific rare card. Best example I can think of is the Dusty Baker Atlanta card.
Actually, that is not the best example as the collection you are referring to could be either Aaron (91) or Baker (96). What happens is that both cards get more expensive.

But you are right that collections with a single high diamond are extremely hard. The best one that comes to mind for me is the Detroit one that requires Freehan (98) to complete: as a result Freehan was hardly ever available for less than 200k (which is actually more than the global prize for completing Detroit ---- Newhouser 99 --- costs)
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Old 03-10-2020, 03:55 PM   #4
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I didn't watch the stream but it is very obvious that bottlenecks are a result of requiring a specific diamond that is in limited supply. Bill Freehan was the worst offender.

Same thing with silvers that become very difficult to find just because there are so many different ones and no packs which guarantee one.

There need to be options like you have in ultimate team which prevent any one card from being mandatory. Say a collection wants you to submit at least X number of cards from a particular list with a certain average rating, so you could do it with a certain number of silvers and either one diamond or two high golds.
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Old 03-10-2020, 07:14 PM   #5
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I watched the stream and didn't really hear any Great Reveal. Historical team missions are OUT and replaced by Historical theme missions. What was not said is how they will work. Will it be like the Ken Griffey mission, to collect 40 out of 50 cards, OR like the Tiger mission and its bottlenecks. He DID blame the community for the bottlenecks and absolved the design team of any responsibility whatsoever. He said, to do otherwise is to make collections very bland and uninteresting. He also said, the best cards in the game will be the rewards of collections, and since the best cards nowadays go for 1 million or more you can just imagine how much a bottleneck will cost in PT21.
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Old 03-10-2020, 07:44 PM   #6
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Kris: "Bottlenecks are 100% out of our control." (55:59 in the youtube video of the PT21 intro stream)

Also Kris: "That being said, we are hoping that the way we have structured the new collections will alleviate the pain of bottlenecks and hope that we don't have as many of those." (56:07 in the youtube video of the PT21 intro stream)


Sorry, but I found this discrepancy to be rather humorous.
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Old 03-11-2020, 06:59 AM   #7
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I stand firmly 100% behind what I said and here's why

- Bottlenecks became what they did because users decided to list cards required for an inflated price AND users paid it to complete the collection. Its an economy, its supply and demand. If people would have held out and NOT paid the asking price, then, naturally, the prices would have had to come down. I've said a 100 times if I've said it once, its a free economy, people will list cards for crazy prices, if people pay them that increases the value of a card.
- We could eliminate diamonds from mission requirements. Sure, but that's also going to mean a drop in the quality of the reward (if the top card required is a gold) and then whats to stop golds from becoming bottlenecks and selling for 50k+ and who's going to do it for a lesser reward?
- Do we take the presence of bottlenecks seriously? Absolutely. We want people to be able to finish collections and its something we talked about a lot, but at the same time, supply and demand is part of the economy of Perfect Team, so while we discuss it as a dev team, its still going to come down to how the users interact with each other through the regular course of business that will determine price and rarity of a card (ex. hoarding). We think we have made tweaks to missions to help alleviate that somewhat, but at the end of the day, its going to come down to users.

TL-DR - I stand by what I said, its economics, but that doesn't stop us from trying to make missions better/more accessible in hopes that more users can complete them
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Old 03-11-2020, 07:52 AM   #8
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You are right that it is economics, but the point is that the developing team plays a huge part in determining the demand. When Bill Freehan is the only diamond you can use the price shoots to the moon, not so when you need 2 out of 5 choices.

The supply of golds is much higher than the supply of diamonds, that's what's stopping the price from getting out of control.
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Old 03-11-2020, 08:10 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by ButtersFTW View Post
I saw the stream and heard what Kris had to say about bottlenecks. I disagree it’s a community generated thing.

The problem I see is where the collection is 6 cards and only 6 cards. And let’s say one is a diamond. That diamond is the bottleneck and will be priced to max because there are no other options.

If that same collection were 6 of 10, and the diamond could be 1 of 3 diamonds, you’re not going to have this bottleneck problem because there are multiple rare cards which qualify.

Those 3 diamonds will all go up in value, but not nearly as much as if it were the one diamond situation. This is what needs to stop. No collection should be limited to only one specific rare card. Best example I can think of is the Dusty Baker Atlanta card.
There is still an opportunity for us as a community to not over-price the one rare card...In that last version the non-SE Vida Blue was in a mission & I had no intention of jacking up the price on the card, I know it's sort of bound to happen but I think the point is there is an opportunity there for you to not jack up the price on a card required for a mission, even if it seems the most sensible thing to do. Their job is to release 21/PT 3.0 bug-free...the rest is up to us. It's a baseball sim. Yes, there is an auction house. No there is not automatically a bottleneck until people treat the auction house like a market to analyze & analyze. & analyze. It's a baseball simulator.
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Old 03-11-2020, 08:46 AM   #10
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That is an extremely simple-minded take. Part of game design is knowing how people will play the game and designing around it.
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Old 03-11-2020, 09:31 AM   #11
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Part of game design is knowing how people will play the game and designing around it.
Very true, but once you factor in the economic side, that's not easy to design around because it's a free-flowing, user driven system that we won't know the reactions to until it's live. We make changes, the economy will adjust and do what it does based on user interaction. We'll evaluate and continue to evolve the experience.
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Old 03-11-2020, 09:53 AM   #12
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I am definitely am not implying it's an easy thing to do. It is a very difficult thing to do when starting a brand new game mode from scratch and the team seems to have incorporated as much of the feedback as they can.

The post above made it seem like all you could do was throw up your hands and claim "the users have to change their behavior" which is really selling the development team short.
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Old 03-11-2020, 11:03 AM   #13
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I am definitely am not implying it's an easy thing to do. It is a very difficult thing to do when starting a brand new game mode from scratch and the team seems to have incorporated as much of the feedback as they can.

The post above made it seem like all you could do was throw up your hands and claim "the users have to change their behavior" which is really selling the development team short.
Gotcha. We know that's not the case. If we could find a way to make collections intriguing and make them "more completable" at the same time, we would. We'll keep evaluating how the AH and keep building interesting content and change our approach as required. It's a constant learning experience for us as anytime we make a change, user habit changes right along with it
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Old 03-11-2020, 02:11 PM   #14
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The developers' point about this being generally out of their control is completely correct. I noted last year that, for some of the biggest bottlenecks, there was one or more users that would buy up that card whenever it hit the market. Thus they would "corner" the market and only list one at a time at exorbitant prices. IF somebody paid that exorbitant price, it would now be in the 7-day price and they could put up the next one even higher. If nobody paid it, they would continue to relist it (or a second one) at a little lower but still exorbitant prices, knowing that the relative nature would encourage people to buy it.

Certainly, however, if the situations were reduced in collections where "1 out of 1" or "2 out of 3" or "3 out of 4" diamonds are required, it becomes more difficult for market manipulators to succeed. But ultimately, it is up to the developers. If they are putting an extremely high prize for a mission, then they might want to limit the number put into circulation.
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Old 03-11-2020, 02:16 PM   #15
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I've said a 100 times if I've said it once, its a free economy, people will list cards for crazy prices, if people pay them that increases the value of a card.
I must have told you a MILLION times - Don't exaggerate !!

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Old 03-11-2020, 11:18 PM   #16
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I stand firmly 100% behind what I said and here's why

- Bottlenecks became what they did because users decided to list cards required for an inflated price AND users paid it to complete the collection. Its an economy, its supply and demand. If people would have held out and NOT paid the asking price, then, naturally, the prices would have had to come down. I've said a 100 times if I've said it once, its a free economy, people will list cards for crazy prices, if people pay them that increases the value of a card.
- We could eliminate diamonds from mission requirements. Sure, but that's also going to mean a drop in the quality of the reward (if the top card required is a gold) and then whats to stop golds from becoming bottlenecks and selling for 50k+ and who's going to do it for a lesser reward?
- Do we take the presence of bottlenecks seriously? Absolutely. We want people to be able to finish collections and its something we talked about a lot, but at the same time, supply and demand is part of the economy of Perfect Team, so while we discuss it as a dev team, its still going to come down to how the users interact with each other through the regular course of business that will determine price and rarity of a card (ex. hoarding). We think we have made tweaks to missions to help alleviate that somewhat, but at the end of the day, its going to come down to users.

TL-DR - I stand by what I said, its economics, but that doesn't stop us from trying to make missions better/more accessible in hopes that more users can complete them
Let me ask you this then....what is the point, the logic, the intention, etc of creating a collection mission (like Detroit w Freehan) that only a very few % of users can complete simply because of the rarity of one of the cards?
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Old 03-11-2020, 11:28 PM   #17
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Let me ask you this then....what is the point, the logic, the intention, etc of creating a collection mission (like Detroit w Freehan) that only a very few % of users can complete simply because of the rarity of one of the cards?
To limit the number of SE cards put into circulation ?
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Old 03-12-2020, 12:26 AM   #18
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I am convinced that bottlenecks are not the issue. Sure, bottlenecks are subject to market manipulation that drives their prices higher, but the same effect happens to many non-bottleneck cards. Just look at any the going rates for newly issued live irons or bronze historical cards - even when they are not associated with a mission, the first ones always go for way more than where their market eventually stabilizes. Sometimes, users decide, for any reason or even for no reason, to make a dedicated effort to manipulate the market to keep the price high, not allowing cards to revert to the pricing levels of comparable (in terms of tier, usage, collections, et al) cards. And don't get me started on collections like the "The Fastest!" with non-bottleneck component cards like Omar Moreno (62 OVR, down to 1700/1500 alltime/last 7 values) or the St. Louis Browns

The only reason why cards that act as functional collection bottlenecks are adversely affected is because the missions shine a spotlight on them, making them easily identifiable for those wanting to play the market game. Cards are affected by market manipulation at an increased rate because of their elite status as a bottleneck, but this manipulation is not restricted to bottlenecks. Solving the bottleneck issue does not solve the actual issue of manipulation.


And I haven't even asked the questions yet of whether or not market manipulation can be solved, or even if it is a problem that needs to be solved.
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Old 03-12-2020, 08:07 AM   #19
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To limit the number of SE cards put into circulation ?
Again though, what's the point of creating content for 0.1% of the games players...
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Old 03-12-2020, 09:05 AM   #20
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Because those 0.1% likely provide half the revenue
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