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Old 03-15-2020, 11:36 AM   #1
Clovidequano Dovatha
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When addressing team needs, ....

When addressing team needs, what should people perhaps normally look for, when it comes to certain positions? Currently, some of the teams I'm running as various human managers need better options at certain positions, and I've not had much success in either finding, developing, or acquiring players to fill those positions very well so far, in the relevant dynasty.

Couple of them need catchers, and at least one of them needs center fielders, at the moment, for example. But let's go position by position here, in any case, just the same.

Catcher, what should one look for, primarily, and what would you consider bonus-type things here in regards to this position, and things to watch out for, as best as possible?

First Base, same question. Would speed help here, or what?

Second Base, same question. How can one tell a good one from a bad one, at this position, most often?

Third Base, same question. Is contact or patience at the plate important to you, or speed, for this position? Or is defense typically more important to you here?

Shortstop, same question. What do you typically look for here? Speed, defense, or hitting ability, or something else?

Left Field, same question. Does it matter if they are power hitters or contact hitters more here, and is defense important here?

Center Field, same question. Do you look more for hitters or defenders here, or somewhere in-between?

Right Field, same question. What are your preferred characteristics for someone at this position, and what are your pet peeves for such players?

Starting Pitcher, especially in the days before five-man rotations. How do you prefer your starters to be? Groundballers, power pitchers, or finesse pitchers, whatever that last bit or two means?

Relief pitchers, especially with starters going longer than they typically now do, generally, in certain eras. Such as the pre-1901 years, for example?

Closers, especially in the dead-ball era, before home runs became much more common and all. What do you typically look for, and what do you typically try to avoid?

Thank you for your time, and all, and I hope to see a good number of responses to this query of mine here, folks, if possible. CD out.
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Old 03-15-2020, 12:11 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovidequano Dovatha View Post
When addressing team needs, what should people perhaps normally look for, when it comes to certain positions? Currently, some of the teams I'm running as various human managers need better options at certain positions, and I've not had much success in either finding, developing, or acquiring players to fill those positions very well so far, in the relevant dynasty.

Couple of them need catchers, and at least one of them needs center fielders, at the moment, for example. But let's go position by position here, in any case, just the same.

Catcher, what should one look for, primarily, and what would you consider bonus-type things here in regards to this position, and things to watch out for, as best as possible?

First Base, same question. Would speed help here, or what?

Second Base, same question. How can one tell a good one from a bad one, at this position, most often?

Third Base, same question. Is contact or patience at the plate important to you, or speed, for this position? Or is defense typically more important to you here?

Shortstop, same question. What do you typically look for here? Speed, defense, or hitting ability, or something else?

Left Field, same question. Does it matter if they are power hitters or contact hitters more here, and is defense important here?

Center Field, same question. Do you look more for hitters or defenders here, or somewhere in-between?

Right Field, same question. What are your preferred characteristics for someone at this position, and what are your pet peeves for such players?

Starting Pitcher, especially in the days before five-man rotations. How do you prefer your starters to be? Groundballers, power pitchers, or finesse pitchers, whatever that last bit or two means?

Relief pitchers, especially with starters going longer than they typically now do, generally, in certain eras. Such as the pre-1901 years, for example?

Closers, especially in the dead-ball era, before home runs became much more common and all. What do you typically look for, and what do you typically try to avoid?

Thank you for your time, and all, and I hope to see a good number of responses to this query of mine here, folks, if possible. CD out.
Questions like these show a profound lack of understanding.

Not of OOTP, that's understandable, but in a much deeper sense

Always in the world one must way the good and the bad. Rarely will anything be perfect.


To try and address this in a concrete way
Your centerfield question. There's no difference between a 3 win CFer who gets it through offense and one who gets it through defense. If the player helps you score 30 more runs than your opponent, it doesn't (there are *some* subtle differences, but those are team specific) matter if it's 40 runs on offense and negative 10 runs on defense, or 0 runs on offense and 30 runs on defense. You'll have the same result.

Now, some people will come here and say they love strong defense up the middle, and will swear by it, but, it's easy to see that that makes no sense. Ts just a preference, There's always a balance.

I, personally, like defense. I was good ad defense when I played, and couldn't hit for anything. That's carried over into my post playing baseball-fandom. But, I don't claim that it's better.

Someone not too long ago made a thread about the relative importance of defense at different positions. You should read that.

There's also a thread about the importance of catcher defense. Read that.

Also some people have studied how pitch types, especially the knuckleball, impact pitcher performance,

Look at those threads
Look at FanGraphs articles from a decade ago to better understand how to value players.

A faster player is always better than a slower player
A player with more power is always better than one with less power.
A player with better defense is always better than one with worse defense
A player with better control is always better than one with worse control
Etc

As long as all else is equal

All else is rarely equal

That's, for me, where the game is.
Mixing and matching player's strengths and weaknesses to create the best team.
It's the essence of the "moneyball" approach. Figuring out how best to utilize a player's strength, while minimizing their weaknesses.

Sometimes that's as simple as a L/R platoon. Or a defensive replacement. But, it can be expanded.

No one can tell you that speed is important in a third baseman. There's a better third baseman out there than the fastest third baseman.

It's always about looking at the totality of the player


Good luck
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Old 03-15-2020, 12:55 PM   #3
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I agree mostly with CBeisbol here. However, if you were to ask a traditional baseball fan or "purist" he'd probably tell you something like defense is more important for the positions of catcher, second base, shortstop and centerfield. Whereas offense is more important at first base, third base, left and right field. These are just general preferences though. While defense is important at the "up the middle" positions, it doesn't help you that much to have a defensive wizard at shortstop who isn't at least able to give you a .650+ OPS on offense.
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Old 03-15-2020, 12:57 PM   #4
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you need to change your perception on things a bit.

edit: using war as a simplistic way to describe something, sure, but don't use it like the post above in such a causal way. it's not accurate enough of a measure to use on its own (or at all, imo). especially the defensive stuff. until it's not dependent on human perceptions. it should be all about quantitative measurements-- reaction time, best path to ball etc. these things aren't subjective and don't change much once they are averaged out with a suitable sample (until age sets in). there's no way they are evaluating it properly. it's too inconsistent about something that shouldn't be if looking at it correctly.

defensive zone rating -- balls they "should" get to.. good luck with that being consistent unless 1 person does it all each day. what a silly way to approach it. *ootp may be different animal than RL, i do use the ZR to evaluate in OOTP, unlike above with war.. that's still weighted poorly, lol. and the whole premise... war is great when choosing a bench player and mil hopes and prayer fillers etc... nothing else.

think of offense and defense as mutually exclusive... you have to field 8 defensive positions, it doesn't matter who hits the home runs or who the speedy guys are if it is an elite offense. the more maleable you are, the more opportunities you allow yourself to field the best team.

now, some positions are more difficult to find various offensive qualities than others. you should understand that a bit. the more demanding a position is, the less likely to find high-quality offense. but, when you find someone that is unusual that is nothing but a good thing when it is power at an unusual position, but not required or something you should overspend on for moderate offensive ability at a tougher position. again, mutually exclusive concepts.. don't pay a SS that hits 15hr/season 30m a year, unless he's also batting 400 with 60+ 2b and 100+RS 120+ rbi etc... basically, superman in uniform.

examples based on your questions and you can extrapolate other stuff:

So, while a 1B with speed and no power can be a great leadoff guy, maybe even the best in the league, but it reduces ability to find good power hitters that fit a position you have available. speed and power, but not leading off? sure... speed is always good to have, but you don't waste a hr hitter batting leadoff unless you have 9 hr-hitters in your lineup.

because it is much easier to find power at 1B than other positions, it would take a rare context where that is a good start to building a team. if it's the last piece and it fits, that's awesome and will work fine. i'd make an exit plan based on age of players that make it work, though.

Catcher is an unusual position. he will be missing 75% of the time from your lineup during a regular season, but will be there every game in the playoffs due to days off. So, it will hurt your W-L record depending on a C to be your 3-4-5 hitter (or even 2nd, etc and reduced effect at all other spots excet 8/9 depending on your dh rule).

you take what you get, though. especially in the draft. there would be rare contexts where you'd spend big money on a C FA that's likely upper 20's or even early 30s. it's just not smart outside of a 1-year-at-a-time outlook.

it's far better to get a defensive stalwart at SS/C for cheap and buy signifiantly better bats at other positions while paying far less per RS. it's more efficient in most cases. when the math dictates otherwise, then you do differently in those more rare contexts - like babe ruth at SS.

the most expensive players in the league will roughly cost the same -- some greedy than others and those sorts of factors ignored for a moment. they better be elite offensive forces if you are spending top-dollar. do not pay for names. don't pay for speed or defense at top dollar, unless it also comes with an elite bat.

---- your lineup is a matter of ~5 years worth of chioces. the more options you give yourself moving forward, the more likely you can maintain a high quality team.

you need to collect as many competent power hitters as possible. after that you need at least 1 good leadoff type. These are guys that you keep around and in the right circumstances extend into their early 30s.

it's more difficult to play musical chairs with this "core" of your team, so age is typically the cause of turnover, and you need to work within that time constraint - no bad long-term contracts that you can't get rid of before they are an albatross.

the more flexibility with positions, the better. Also, when they fill a tougher spot liek CF and SS it gives you greater flexibility in acquiring more high-quality offensive players that fit a fielding position you need. But, don't overspend at those positions for a relatively good hitting SS or CF, they need to be a league-wide positionless good hitting player that just happens to play SS or CF.

i like to carry a 2nd, cheaper leadoff type and bury one at bottom third of lineup, hopefully he's also a defensive wiz at a key defensive position, like SS or CF, if possible, but not required.

So, i amass as much power that can field 8 positions, i have a couple OBP guys, then best cheap options available that fit the budget, without long-term committments. you can't "stash" backup power. those guys get hurt, you are f%$ed. you can stash a competent leadoff guy at a lineup spot that create very little offense even with extreme talent for cheap that plays everday instead of creating no value on the bench or in AAA. win-win and you likely have a spot in your lineup... unless you have 9 power hitters and can afford it.

don't give long-term contracts to guys that are ~average or just not that good. you need to upgrade them with as few obstacles as possible. paying more, within short-term budget outlook, to get a shorter term on contract is always worth it.

trade guys before they age, especially if they do have a future bad contract. accept that by avoiding this risk that sometimes guys will go on to have success elsewhere for a while, but most will fizzle within a couple years. (again, position comes into play for consideration -- catchers age faster than first basement, cf lose their elite defenisve ability before 30 in many cases etc...know trends, avoid the downswings)

even better, if timing works out and you get a draft pick compensation? that's great, let them go. if that is better than a possible trade return, that's the way to go.

Last edited by NoOne; 03-15-2020 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 03-15-2020, 01:10 PM   #5
Clovidequano Dovatha
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Well, free agency isn't a factor at this point, seeing as I have the reserve clause on, and it's still not even 1880 yet in that dynasty. I have Marty Marion able to play all the infield positions, and am even playing him in RF at times, to get him some experience at another position. I have several versatile players, but not many can play CF well, for instance, even considering the time period in question, I think, at present, speaking for my St. Louis Archers team in the ABF.

As for pitching, what should I typically avoid, perhaps? Also catcher is a potential area of need for two or three teams that I'm currently running in the relevant dynasty. When seeking to get players experience there who may not be very good or have ratings yet for the position, how would you likely go about it, if you had to, somehow?

Thank you for your time and all. Looking forwards to more responses here, in due time, if and whenever possible, of course. Please keep an eye on the dynasty forum for a potential new dynasty-related reports thread. One such thread may be created there very soon, if at all possible. CD out.
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Old 03-15-2020, 01:27 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoOne View Post
you need to change your perception on things a bit.
Yes
That was one point I was trying to make.
NoOne probably phrased it better


Quote:
edit: using war as a simplistic way to describe something, sure, but don't use it like the post above in such a causal way. it's not accurate enough of a measure to use on its own (or at all, imo). especially the defensive stuff. until it's not dependent on human perceptions. it should be all about quantitative measurements-- reaction time, best path to ball etc. these things aren't subjective and don't change much once they are averaged out with a suitable sample (until age sets in). there's no way they are evaluating it properly. it's too inconsistent about something that shouldn't be if looking at it correctly.
This is incorrect.
Use WAR
No, it's not perfect, but if you understand what it does and doesn't do, its one of the most useful tools you have.


Quote:
think of offense and defense as mutually exclusive...
Don't do this
They are intricately related.

Quote:
it doesn't matter who hits the home runs or who the speedy guys are
This is true



Quote:
now, some positions are more difficult to find various offensive qualities than others. you should understand that a bit. the more demanding a position is, the less likely to find high-quality offense
This is very important and what I alluded to when talking about valuing players
It's hard to hit
It's hard to play defense
It harder to do both



Quote:
So, while a 1B with speed and no power can be a great leadoff guy, maybe even the best in the league
Speed and poor power is a bad leadoff hitter
Speed is "wasted" in front of power hitters.
Put speed in front of your singles hitters at the end of the lineup

Your leadoff hitter will get the most PA's. Put a good hitter there.


Quote:
it's far better to get a defensive stalwart at SS/C for cheap and buy signifiantly better bats at other positions while paying far less per RS. it's more efficient in most cases. when the math dictates otherwise, then you do differently in those more rare contexts - like babe ruth at SS.
A cheap good-hit, no-field catcher is also a good option. Especially in online leagues where lots of people overrate catcher defense.


Quote:
you need to collect as many competent power hitters as possible. after that you need at least 1 good leadoff type.
Get as many good hitters as possible.
Don't worry about power hitters and leadoff types.


Quote:
the more flexibility with positions, the better.
Absolutely


Quote:
don't give long-term contracts to guys that are ~average or
Of course you can and, sometimes, should do this.
As long as it's the right contract
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Old 03-15-2020, 01:40 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by NoOne View Post

edit: using war as a simplistic way to describe something, sure, but don't use it like the post above in such a causal way. it's not accurate enough of a measure to use on its own (or at all, imo). especially the defensive stuff. until it's not dependent on human perceptions. it should be all about quantitative measurements-- reaction time, best path to ball etc. these things aren't subjective and don't change much once they are averaged out with a suitable sample (until age sets in). there's no way they are evaluating it properly. it's too inconsistent about something that shouldn't be if looking at it correctly.
WAR for defense in OOTP is not subjective. There is no human judging whether the ball could have been handled by a better defensive player. OOTP is objectively calculating defensive WAR based upon preset parameters.
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Old 03-15-2020, 01:54 PM   #8
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The Archers have Jim Bottomley at present, but he isn't hitting as well as he did in reality at present in comparison with his real-life numbers. I don't know if that may be because of the era I'm currently in with the relevant dynasty, or because of other reasons, such as potential lack of lineup protection, but it's still a little frustrating, at least, to see him not hitting as well as he did in reality. Any ideas on how I can get his numbers up and those of his teammates, perhaps, folks? CD out.
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Old 03-15-2020, 02:00 PM   #9
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The Archers have Jim Bottomley at present, but he isn't hitting as well as he did in reality at present in comparison with his real-life numbers. I don't know if that may be because of the era I'm currently in
You need to look at the adjusted numbers
Not the raw numbers


And also look at the number of PAs
Is this a few games, a few months
A few seasons
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Old 03-15-2020, 02:02 PM   #10
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Can anyone help me out with my importing of players issue mentioned in my "Why can't I import players" thread or whatever I called it, please? I'd really appreciate it if I can figure out why certain players who essentially had only cups of coffee in the majors can't be imported by me for a certain league, to put them in a draft pool, from a text file I'd made up. Any useful advice would be quite helpful here, I expect. Also in my "Where would you put teams?" thread, it would be nice to see more comments as well, I think. Thank you. CD out.
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Old 03-15-2020, 02:08 PM   #11
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Bottomley's hit under .300 for a while, unfortunately, and Tillie Walker hasn't been hitting or playing defense well for a while. There are a number of players that aren't likely hitting or playing defense as well as they probably should be doing, as well. My Archers team hasn't done well for a few seasons now, in truth. And the other teams I'm running aren't very far into their existences either, so they're still trying to build their franchises at this point.

The Archers started play in 1870. While all the other teams started in either 1876 or 1877. The 1877 season just concluded, and the league that started in 1870 is going to need to add another minor league and/or level for its franchises to have teams on, evidently, in time for the upcoming season.

Details as they now stand are in my "Where would you put teams?" thread, if anyone's interested in checking it out. Feel free to comment respectfully and all, if you wish and can, et cetera, folks. Thanks for your input here, and all. CD out.
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Old 03-15-2020, 03:30 PM   #12
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Be careful expecting the same or similar results from historical players, especially if you are using the development engine. Many OOTP players like to use fictional players when doing historical so that they aren't biased by the names of the players resulting in disappointment when they don't perform similar to real life.
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Old 03-15-2020, 03:43 PM   #13
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The dynasty in question started as a fictional custom one, with some real team names, and others fictional, when I created the American Baseball Federation for it. I then added Major League Baseball and the North American Baseball Association in 1876, but not through the historical team import sort of procedure. I added a minor league as well for the ABF's franchises to play players on teams for, also for the 1876 season, that league being the Columbian Interstate Baseball Association, as a Triple A-level league. I will likely need to add at least another minor league, if not a new minor league level, for the 1878 season in that dynasty for the ABF teams to have teams in, I think.

Several details about the current dynasty setup are mentioned in my "Where would you put teams?" thread. Importing-related questions are in my "Why won't these players import?" thread.

Thank you for your time and attention and all here, everyone, then. CD out.
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Old 03-15-2020, 07:53 PM   #14
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lot of views from this post, but yours is the one that matters. catcher on defense, Johnney bnch sure made a go at it, pete rose although he started at 3rd before changing to first he was a basehit kind of guy, who deserves to be in the hall of fame by the way. as I said your perspective is what matters. greatness comes from within, go with what you feel.Take a look at george brett and his power hitting, CF yes speed is a must, look at ozzie Smith, Ricky henderson. the quicker you can get to the back, the quicker you can get to home the better off you will be....with my current team our def. is mediocre at best best I have good pitching staff..I'm still a beginner but its like being a kid, we learn from our mistakes.although i do believe some of these guys can be a bit hard on us new guys so just take it as a grain of salt and go with your gut
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Old 03-15-2020, 08:02 PM   #15
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Bottomley is a starter, and has been for quite some time since drafted by the Archers, except when he has been hurt, which has not happened often so far in this career of his. I've played him in the outfield so that others can get experience at first, without losing his bat in the lineup, as well, and to try to get him experience anywhere but first, but he's not played well there, unfortunately. Also, he's a lefty thrower, so that reduces the positions he'll likely be able to play, of course.

I've played OOTP since version 18, for your information. I don't know if it's the era the dynasty is in now, or not, but even in the pre-1901 years, shouldn't there likely be better offense statistics more or less for certain players, perhaps? Just wondering, that's all. CD out.
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Old 03-15-2020, 08:14 PM   #16
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lot of views from this post, but yours is the one that matters. catcher on defense, Johnney bnch sure made a go at it, pete rose although he started at 3rd before changing to first he was a basehit kind of guy, who deserves to be in the hall of fame by the way. as I said your perspective is what matters. greatness comes from within, go with what you feel.Take a look at george brett and his power hitting, CF yes speed is a must, look at ozzie Smith, Ricky henderson. the quicker you can get to the back, the quicker you can get to home the better off you will be....with my current team our def. is mediocre at best best I have good pitching staff..I'm still a beginner but its like being a kid, we learn from our mistakes.although i do believe some of these guys can be a bit hard on us new guys so just take it as a grain of salt and go with your gut
This is a weird post. Wasn't Bench good on offense and defense? Brett wasn't a "power hitter" as he only hit 30 home runs once in his career and was much better known at the time for his batting average than his home runs. Ozzie Smith wasn't a center fielder. Henderson only started about 400 games out of his over 3,000 games in center field. And Pete Rose won RoY at 2nd base and his only MVP in left field. He did not "start at third base before moving to first".

"Going with your gut" is a fine strategy to use at a poker table when facing live players and trying to decipher how strong their hands are. However, in a purely numbers game like OOTP, I think you are better off going with your brain over your gut. But again, as everyone here likes to say, it is your game so play it however you wish.
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Old 03-15-2020, 08:49 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post
This is a weird post.
Glad it wasn't only me who thought so.



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Brett wasn't a "power hitter" as he only hit 30 home runs once in his career and was much better known at the time for his batting average than his home runs.
Home runs aren't the only measure of power

Brett's ISO was consistently well above the league average.
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Old 03-15-2020, 09:06 PM   #18
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Yeah I wasn't trying to argue that Brett didn't have power, just that he was never known as a power hitter. He was known much more for his hitting. I would expect that his batting average compared to the average MLB player would show an even greater disparity than his ISO comparison. George Brett isn't someone I would single out as "someone to look at for their power hitting". If I was going to single something out about Brett, it would be his overall hitting since I believe he posted the highest average in MLB for one season since Ted Williams?
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Old 03-16-2020, 01:19 AM   #19
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Yeah I wasn't trying to argue that Brett didn't have power, just that he was never known as a power hitter. He was known much more for his hitting. I would expect that his batting average compared to the average MLB player would show an even greater disparity than his ISO comparison. George Brett isn't someone I would single out as "someone to look at for their power hitting". If I was going to single something out about Brett, it would be his overall hitting since I believe he posted the highest average in MLB for one season since Ted Williams?
He hit for substantially more power than the average hitter during his career.
He also had a higher average and OBP
He was a great hitter all around.

He also hit 3rd 8325 times in his career
He hit 4th 796 times, his second post frequented lineup spot
He hit leadoff 614 times, his fourth most frequented lineup spot
And 2nd 665 times, his 3rd most frequented spot
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...ear=Career&t=b

His managers definitely, rightly, wanted him in the middle or top of the order.
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Old 03-16-2020, 02:08 AM   #20
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He was a great hitter all around.
Which was my point. No one ever called him a "power hitter". Guys who were known as "power hitters" during his era are guys like Reggie Jackson, George Foster, Andre Dawson, etc. Guys who were just considered great hitters during his era were guys like Pete Rose, Don Mattingly, Wade Boggs, Keith Hernandez, etc. I grew up during this era. I am pretty well versed in how all these guys were labeled by the sports media and fans of the time. If you asked anyone who watched baseball from back then to name a power hitter, George Brett is not who they'd answer with. My whole point was that labeling him a "power hitter" makes him seem more one dimensional than he was. He was maybe the best all around hitter of his era.

It was similar to the singling out of Bench for his defense as if he wasn't also good offensively.

Also, why does it matter where he hit in the lineup? Wade Boggs hit 2nd or 3rd for most of his career. You calling him a "power hitter"?

Last edited by Dyzalot; 03-16-2020 at 02:12 AM.
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