New HW Boxers Rated

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Hey,

And your going to get 2 for the price of 1

Prebeg's career was a mix of LHW and HW. Of his 51 bouts, 32 were LHW with a small mix of middleweight. The rest were HW's and he mixed those HW's in throughout his career. It wasn't a case where he fought LHW the first part of his career and then moved up to HW for the rest of it. I think the mix warrents rating him at both LHW and HW so that's what I'm working on. Looking at the numbers early on in my testing, he's going to be a better LHW. I believe his career W/L record and who he fought bears that out.

Hope to have them done in another day or so.
Rocco

[Heavyweight]

Machen will score an upset is my prediction. Gerhard's dreams will go down in flames.

[jabbo]

Tricky Eddie Machen was able to decision a very young Jerry Quarry in 1966; he then decisioned Jerry Orbillo, another young California heavyweight of some promise. However, the crafty West Coast boxer was well past prime, and other than beating the prototypical heavyweight trial horse, George "Scrapiron" Johnson, he never won again.

Machen peaked in the last '50s, early '60s. He'd have to be considered "post-prime" and possibly "end" by 1966.

Zech's choice of Preberg is certainly a softer defense than Henry Cooper or even Billy Walker would have been. I agree that at this point Zech's managers could be expecting a call from Ali's at any minute. I don't see any upside to taking on Machen.

This is fun. I think a universe with fighters "managed" by various contributors to this board has distinct possibilities. Maybe when the roleplaying game comes out this could be facilitated.

Bob

[jabbo]

Is Gerhard Zech still alive? It occurs to me that he might be very amused and flattered to find out that he's been the subject of such serious study!

Bob

[crusadecat]

I think that Machen could pull the win as well. Ill be looking forward to hear what happens

[Rocco Del Sesto]

I got the Prebeg LHW rated. Got to play test the HW one which of course will be used in the Zech fight.

I agree that Machen is going to be a tough fight for Zech.

A question I got and will ask this board of astute boxing champions here is what career stage should Machen be fought at? This fight corresponding with his real fight with Mildenberger, he had 7 more career fights to go of his 64 total.

I've seen mention of various scales some of you use in your universes of what breakdown in number of fights to set a career stage at for a fighter. 1-10 Start, 11-24 pre prime, 25-49 prime, etc. Seems like most of the examples I have seen assume a sort of lengthly boxing career. But what of these guys who fight maybe only 20-30 some fights? Or less for that matter. I've struggled a bit a times with that what what to set a fighter at.

Would a percentage breakdown of a fighters total fights maybe work better?
Say something like.....

0 to 20% Beginning
21 to 39% Pre Prime
40 to 69% Prime
70 to 89% Post Prime
90 to 100 % End


Gerhard would be about 65-66 now so I think good possibility he's still around. That would be interesting Bob to see what Gerhard would think of all this.
Rocco

[swampdragon]

Looking at Machen's career, I would put him at post-prime when he fought Mildenberger. I don't believe in set formulas. Many fighters retire before they get to end stage, which I define as losing to guys that couldn't shine your shoes in your prime. Maybe Machen's very last fight, a 3rd round KO by Boone Kirkland, qualifies. But two fights before that, he went 10 with Joe Frazier before being knocked out, and a couple of fights before that, he beat Quarry. Both of those performances were after the Mildenberger fight, and are not consistent with an end stage fighter.

[jofre]

I agree with post-prime.

Regarding your other question, there is no statistical answer. Each fighter is different. David Reid for example went from Prime to End of Career after the Trinidad fight IMO.

One has to look at the fighter's entire career and look at the trend of their effectivenes or lack of.

[Heavyweight]

I have bits of both Machen-Quarry and Machen-Frazier and he is not his sharpest, but still very formidable. I would say past-prime. Very important that Zech has home-town judging because I guarantee that the fans and judges see things Gerhard's way if you know what I mean. Machen actually stuns Frazier in about round 8 and tries to pounce but Frazier at that point is just too strong. Machen was behind on points against Quarry through about the 6th round, but Quarry had terrible stamina in his pre-prime stage and Jerry lost the last 4 rounds to get eeked out by Eddie. I think Eddie is so undervalued in the history books and think he was a very classy fighter. Still rooting for Gerhard though!!

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Here's some info and ratings on Yvan Prebeg whom Gerhard is scheduled to defend his European HW Title against after dispatching(I hope ) Eddie Machen in his next fight.

I've rated Prebeg both as a HW and LHW. Came out much better it seems as the LHW. I'll post files for both.

Rocco

31 wins / 15 losses / 5 draws / 22 KO

Hometown: Zagreb, Croatia(Hrvatska)
Birthplace: Josipdol

Rated by: Rocco Del Sesto

Prebeg fought the majority of his fights in the Light Heavyweight division, but fought a number of Heavyweight bouts throughout his career. A small sprinkling of middleweight opponents were thrown in. His record against Heavyweights was 11-6-2 with 7KO's. Against LH's and the MW's it was 20-9-3,15KO.

He fought only a couple of LHW's out of the game, Pekka Kokkonen whom he lost to by 4th round KO, and Piero Del Papa who decisioned Prebeg in 15 rounds to who he lost the European LH Title to in Feb. 1970 after having attained that crown in June 1969 against Eddie Avoth.

Heavyweights he fought included wins against Paul Roux who had a decent looking record in the 50's-60's, Buddy Turman, another busy journeyman in the 50's-60's who fought a few "name" HW's, Dave Bailey,Jose Peyre, and Mariano Echevarria. Some that he lost against, Jack Bodell, Jurgen Blin and Karl Mildenberger with whom he battled 15 rounds for the European HW Title in June 1966 only to loose by decision to Karl.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Attached...

Rocco

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Gerhard Zech's 38th fight.... 1966-04-14 Hamburg, Germany

Gerhard Zech (35-1-1) vs Eddie Machen (47-6-3)

We're getting ready to fight here in the Schlachtof Halle in Hamburg, Germany! But first a littl rundown on Gerhard's tough opponent tonight........

Eddie Machen

50 wins / 11 losses / 3 draws / 29 KO

Hometown/Birthplace: Redding, CA

Eddie Machen, from 1955-57 had put together a 24-0-0,16KO record. Some of those early wins included over Howard King(39-29-8 lifetime), two against Nino Valdes, John Holman, Johnny Summerlin, two against Joey Maxim, Bob Baker and Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson. That Jackson fight, a 10th round TKO, left Machen along with Zora Folley regarded as the top 2 HW contenders in 58.

Then champion, Floyd Patterson was accused of ducking both Machen and Folley for title fights. Cus D'Amato, then Patterson's trainer and manager, finally consented to give the winner of a fight between Machen and Folley a shot at the champion. That fight was fought on April 9th, 1958. Unfortunately for both Machen and Folley, it ended in a 12 round draw! D'Amato then afterward argued that that elimated each other from contention to fight Patterson and thus Machen and Folley would have to wait a few more years to get a title fight, despite continuing to be rated high in the heavyweight rankings.

After the Folley fight, Machen lost by 1st round KO to Ingemar Johansson(20-0-0 at the time). Later fights included wins over Young Jack Johnson, two over Reuben Vargas, Willi Besmanoff, Alex Miteff, Wayne Bethea, Mike DeJohn, Brian London, Doug JOnes, Bert Whitehurst, Roger Rischer, Alonzo JOhnson, Dave Bailey. He lost decisions to Zora Folley, Sonny Liston, and LHW great Harold Johnson. In 1962 he drew 10 rounds with Cleveland Williams.

In July, 1964, Machen finally got his chance at Patterson, though not for a championship. The two fought a 12 round battle that Patterson was given the decision win. Despite the loss to Patterson, In March of 1965, Machen still highly ranked was given his shot a the Heavyweight Title, at least the WBA's part of it as he went against Ernie Terrell for the WBA's HW Title that they had taken away from Muhammad Ali after Ali had agreed to give Sonny Liston. Machen and Terrell fought a 15 round battle with Machen ending up on the short end of a UD.

The Patterson and Terrell losses were really the start of the downside of Machen's career as he went only 3-7-1. He did beat Joey Orbillo(10-0-1), Jerry Quarry and George (Scrap Iron) Johnson in successive fights in 1966. Those were sandwiched inbetween losses to Karl Mildenberger and Manuel Ramos and then losses to Joe Frazier, Henry Clark and Boone Kirkman to end his career.

Course we all pretty much know about Mr. Zech....so let's get ready for some Heavyweight Boxing!!

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Zech comes out and quickly lands a hard combination and then an uppercut that staggers Machen. After they a pretty long clinch, Zech then lands a big hook. After that they spar around for the rest of the round letting Machen regain his composure.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Both fighters come out leaning, circling and avoiding each other for the most part for the first minute of the round. Finally after about another 1/2 minute of little activity, Eddie lands a solid shot to the head and follows that up with a better one. After more posturing by both fighters, Gehard scores with a hook. Then the crowd is stunned when the referee signals an intentional head butt against Zech!! The referee missed that one folk!

With about a 1/2 minute left in the round, Machen then suddenly lands a hook and then a solid uppercut that drops Zech on his back! Gerhards up quickly though and the round ends.

After a slight edge to Zech in round one Machen comes back to take round two convincingly on all score cards!

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Round 3 starts with Zech rushing out of his corner. After he lands a short hook to Eddie's rigs, Machen lands a conbination. This match would appear to be turning into more of a chess match between these two. Zech lands a jab and Machen then scores with a two punch combination. Small jabs, hooks and combinations through the rest of the round with neither fighter scoring much.

10-9,10-9,10-10 slightest of edges to Zech that round.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

1/2 minute in, Machen finally manages to land a double left, one to the head and one to the body. More chess play going on with the crowd wanting more action. Zech manages a half-hook, half uppercut that catches Eddie cleand then bangs teh uppercut home. Machen lands a right hand, then Zech counters with a smashing Jab! The round ends

Looks like 10-9, 10-9, 10-9 with Zech winning by a slight margen the chess match here.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

5th round of this scheduled 10 round bout starting here.....
A lot of moving and sliding around each other, clinching, tying each other up. Finally with almost 2-1/2 minutes gone in the round, Zech lands a perfect combination and Machen slumps to the canvas! But Eddie gets up quickly after only a 1 count. Machen's legs are a bit Jell-0'y but he makes it through to the bell.

Decided round for Zech even though again not that much action..
10-8, 10-8, 10-8

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Zech comes out, he snakes a jab through Machen's gloves. He had some snap on that one! Then after a pause in the action Zech lands a solid uppercut that sends Machen into the ropes! The two fighters lean into one another and then Zech rips off a nice right-left combination to the head then scores with a hook to the body. Zech then catches Machen with a sweep uppercut. Machen regroups himself and boxes Gerhard into the ropes. Machen rips off two quick jabs with one finding the mark. With a 1/2 minute left in the round both fighters start throwing more punches with Machen being the more effective in the exchange.
End of round 6

Judges 1 and 3 give it 10-9 each to Gerhard, but judge two probably based on that last 1/2 minute flurry of punches gives it 10-9 to Machen.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Both fighters move in and square off to each other to start the 7th in hopes of speeding up the action and gain a decided advantage here in this round. Oh!! Machen lands a sharp combination that rocked Zech back on his heels! Both fighters sneak a breather as they clinch. Machen misses with a jab but follows and connects with a cross. Machen backs into the far corner where Zech shoots the right home. Zech then gets trapped in the corner and Machen lands a three punch combo! The fighters then circle one another looking for an opening throwing small jabs at each other. Zech throws a jab and then shortly an uppercut that scores to the jaw of Machen to end round 7.

This time judges 1 and 3 score it 10-9 each for Machen and judge 2 10-9 for Zech!?

[Rocco Del Sesto]

The fighters move together to start the round. Zech just comes up short with a shot. Machen misses with the left then fails to connect with the right as well. Then suddenly, Zech lands a vicious combination and down goes Machen!!!!
The count starts....
1....
2....
3....
4....
5....
6....
7....
8....
9....
10!!!
He can't beat the count!! It's over!!! I don't believe it, that quickly it's suddenly over!!! Machen is stopped here in the 8th round at the 0:46 mark!!

Gerhard had done it!!

I still don't believe it!! I thought the way that fight was progressing, Machen would be able to work his way back into this fight.

After the first 7 rounds it was only 67-64, 67-64, 67-65 Gerhard. It could have been close, very close to a possible draw in this one when Gerhard suddenly jolts Machen to the canvas!! He's now 36-1-1 with only Prebeg between him and a possible shot at Muhammad Ali and the World Heavyweight Championship!!

Well we can dream can't we?!