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Old 10-15-2019, 03:24 AM   #21
Argonaut
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I haven't looked at every pitch type.. though that may be worth doing this week. From what I've seen, the Knuckleball and Changeup are very good.

But the Changeup's effectiveness is already baked into the Stuff rating. There's no "hidden" benefit, in fact there's actually a hidden drawback -- higher stolen bases.

My wager is that NoOne is right in that the Knuckleball is the best pitch in the game, assuming equal STU/MOV/CON ratings. This is because of the awesome "hidden" effect of low BABIP. Not sure if the Knuckle Curve has a different effect, I can check that.

As for how this plays into Perfect Team, it's not a big deal. Phil Niekro is the best knuckler of all time, and although he has a pretty good PEAK card that I want on my Cowboys team... it's not good enough to play on those 120-win whale teams.
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Old 10-15-2019, 02:05 PM   #22
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i've seen mixed results with very few that had a knuckle-curve.

who was the reliever on kc ~7-10 years ago with an awesome ootp-rated knucklcurve? he always had really good years when rated well.

when i've seen a screwball pitcher, they seem pretty sweet. i've only seen 1 or 2? who knows, that could be a memory based on something i tested and mixed wiring. screwball may be era-related? (time - era, not acronym E.R.A.)

ch-up has a bit more of a split.. not sure about circl chng? i bet most of the slow, big bending stuff increases hr/9 a tad, just like they likely increase SB% a tad.

if it's mathematically proveable, there's a fairly good chance it is in ootp, in some shape or form, if not resolved down to smallest increment. everything i said is a guess, if not slightly educated.. .call all of this thread an informal guesstimate, even if most likely true on certain things. safer that way.

Last edited by NoOne; 10-15-2019 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:07 PM   #23
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OK, I've goofed around with the editor today, and I've come up with a not-definitive ranking of all the pitch types. And also found out some more interesting information. A lot of this is already baked into the displayed STU/MOV/CON ratings, but I could see this list being useful for things like stat-only play, or looking at undeveloped prospects. Here it is:

Ranking of OOTP Pitch Types

1. Knuckleball: Far and away the best pitch in the game. It is among the best strikeout pitches, and has one of the best affects on expected FIP. But not only that, it is the only pitch that meaningfully reduces BABIP, and it reduces it so much that expected ERA will be much lower than FIP.

2. Slider: This is a great pitch that has the best affect on a pitcher's Movement and Control in OOTP. It has an average affect on Stuff. One of the top pitches no matter how you look at it.

3. Changeup/Circle Change: I found that these two pitches are identical as far as the OOTP engine is concerned. Only difference is the grip on the ball, the stats will be the same. You can have both of these pitches though and it'll be a double-positive. The Changeup is a strikeout pitch with the best affect on Stuff (along with the Knuckleball). It also has a small penalty to Movement and Control, and a hidden penalty to stolen bases (at least compared to a Fastball). But it's a great pitch for a pitcher's FIP.

4. Knuckle Curve: Unfortunately this pitch doesn't lower BABIP like the regular Knuckleball. But it looks like the most balanced pitch in the game, with solid boosts to all of Stuff, Movement, and Control. A nice pitch to add to a knuckler's arsenal and a top tier pitch on its own.

5. Forkball: Gives a nice boost to Stuff, and neutral on Movement/Control.

6. Curveball: Gives a similar boost to Stuff as the Forkball and Knuckle Curve, but it also gives a small penalty to Movement and Control.

7: Sinker: Not a good strikeout pitch with amongst the lowest boost to Stuff, but it gives the second best boost to Movement and Control after the Slider.

8. Screwball: An odd pitch that gives a good boost to Stuff similar to the Fork/Curve/Knuckle Curve... but it's the most homer and walk prone pitch in the game with the biggest penalty to Movement and Control.

9. Splitter: Nothing stands out about this pitch. Small boost to Stuff, and sometimes a small penalty to Movement and Control.

10. Cutter: Has a weak affect on Stuff like the Sinker, but doesn't have the same benefit to Movement and Control (has a small penalty). Sorry Mariano, but this is the worst pitch in the game. Aside from perhaps the harder to discern following pitch...

N/A. Fastball: I can't rate the generic Fastball because it seems like there's more variables at play with this one. By some of my tests it seems like the worst strikeout pitch in the game. But the Fastball is definitely affected by a pitcher's velocity (faster = better). It's hard to give a definitive ranking to this pitch without extensive testing.

Other Notes

- Oddly, if a pitcher has any rating in the generic Fastball pitch, he will not receive any BABIP benefit from a Knuckleball. From what I see anyway, not sure if it's a visual bug or an intended part of the game engine. So a knuckler should not add a Fastball to his arsenal.

- Remember that the above pitches mostly affect the Stuff rating, and that they're already baked into the displayed STU/MOV/CON ratings. Although the Screwball has the worst dip on pitcher MOV/CON, the affect is still pretty small and definitely offset by the added STU from the pitch. 95% of the time adding more pitches is better.

- Arm slot is interesting, and seems to only affect platoon splits. Submarine/Sidearm/Normal/Over-the-Top <--- From left to right, these arm slots have higher platoon splits. For example, a LHP Submariner will kill LHBs.

- There seems to be some interaction between pitch types, and I can't try out all the combinations. So don't take my list as definitive. There's also probably some more hidden affects of pitches that I'm not aware of.

- These rankings are based on pitches with equal ratings. So even though a Cutter isn't as good as a Slider, a really good Cutter (Mariano) is better than a bad Slider.

EDIT: Forgot to mention my testing was done with a right-handed pitcher. Perhaps the pitch rankings would change for a lefty, i.e. the Slider might not be so high.

Last edited by Argonaut; 10-16-2019 at 02:38 AM.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argonaut View Post
OK, I've goofed around with the editor today, and I've come up with a not-definitive ranking of all the pitch types. And also found out some more interesting information. A lot of this is already baked into the displayed STU/MOV/CON ratings, but I could see this list being useful for things like stat-only play, or looking at undeveloped prospects. Here it is:

Ranking of OOTP Pitch Types

1. Knuckleball: Far and away the best pitch in the game. It is among the best strikeout pitches, and has one of the best affects on expected FIP. But not only that, it is the only pitch that meaningfully reduces BABIP, and it reduces it so much that expected ERA will be much lower than FIP.

2. Slider: This is a great pitch that has the best affect on a pitcher's Movement and Control in OOTP. It has an average affect on Stuff. One of the top pitches no matter how you look at it.

3. Changeup/Circle Change: I found that these two pitches are identical as far as the OOTP engine is concerned. Only difference is the grip on the ball, the stats will be the same. You can have both of these pitches though and it'll be a double-positive. The changeup is a strikeout pitch with the best affect on Stuff (along with the knuckleball). It also has a small penalty to Movement and Control, and a hidden penalty to stolen bases (at least compared to a fastball). But it's a great pitch for a pitcher's FIP.

4. Knuckle Curve: Unfortunately this pitch doesn't lower BABIP like the regular knuckleball. But it looks like the most balanced pitch in the game, with solid boosts to all of Stuff, Movement, and Control. A nice pitch to add to a knuckler's arsenal and a top tier pitch on its own.

5. Forkball: Gives a nice boost to Stuff, and neutral on Movement/Control.

6. Curveball: Gives a similar boost to Stuff as the forkball and knuckle curve, but it also gives a small penalty to Movement and Control.

7: Sinker: Not a good strikeout pitch with amongst the lowest boost to Stuff, but it gives the second best boost to Movement and Control after the slider.

8. Screwball: An odd pitch that gives a good boost to Stuff similar to the fork/curve/knuckle curve... but it's the most homer and walk prone pitch in the game with the biggest penalty to Movement and Control.

9. Splitter: Nothing stands out about this pitch. Small boost to Stuff, and sometimes a small penalty to Movement and Control.

10. Cutter: Has a weak affect on Stuff like the Sinker, but doesn't have the same benefit to Movement and Control (has a small penalty). Sorry Mariano, but this is the worst non-generic fastball pitch in the game.

N/A. Fastball: I can't rate the generic Fastball because it seems like there's more variables at play with this one. By some of my tests it seems like the worst strikeout pitch in the game. But the fastball is definitely affected by a pitcher's velocity (faster = better). It's hard to give a definitive ranking to this pitch without extensive testing.

Other Notes

- Oddly, if a pitcher has any rating in the generic fastball pitch, he will not receive any BABIP benefit from a knuckleball. From what I see anyway, not sure if it's a visual bug or an intended part of the game engine. So a knuckler should not add a fastball to his arsenal.

- Remember that the above pitches mostly affect the Stuff rating, and that they're already baked into the displayed STU/MOV/CON ratings. Although the screwball has the worst dip on pitcher MOV/CON, the affect is still pretty small and definitely offset by the added STU from the pitch. 95% of the time adding more pitches is better.

- Arm slot is interesting, and seems to only affect platoon splits. Submarine/Sidearm/Normal/Over-the-Top <--- From left to right, these arm slots have higher platoon splits. For example, a LHP submariner will kill LHBs.

- There seems to be some interaction between pitch types, and I can't try out all the combinations. So don't take my list as definitive. There's also probably some more hidden affects of pitches that I'm not aware of.

- These rankings are based on pitches with equal ratings. So even though a cutter isn't as good as a slider, a really good cutter (Mariano) is better than a bad slider.
This is impressive, thanks!

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Old 10-15-2019, 09:00 PM   #25
Sharkn20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argonaut View Post
OK, I've goofed around with the editor today, and I've come up with a not-definitive ranking of all the pitch types. And also found out some more interesting information. A lot of this is already baked into the displayed STU/MOV/CON ratings, but I could see this list being useful for things like stat-only play, or looking at undeveloped prospects. Here it is:

Ranking of OOTP Pitch Types

1. Knuckleball: Far and away the best pitch in the game. It is among the best strikeout pitches, and has one of the best affects on expected FIP. But not only that, it is the only pitch that meaningfully reduces BABIP, and it reduces it so much that expected ERA will be much lower than FIP.

2. Slider: This is a great pitch that has the best affect on a pitcher's Movement and Control in OOTP. It has an average affect on Stuff. One of the top pitches no matter how you look at it.

3. Changeup/Circle Change: I found that these two pitches are identical as far as the OOTP engine is concerned. Only difference is the grip on the ball, the stats will be the same. You can have both of these pitches though and it'll be a double-positive. The changeup is a strikeout pitch with the best affect on Stuff (along with the knuckleball). It also has a small penalty to Movement and Control, and a hidden penalty to stolen bases (at least compared to a fastball). But it's a great pitch for a pitcher's FIP.

4. Knuckle Curve: Unfortunately this pitch doesn't lower BABIP like the regular knuckleball. But it looks like the most balanced pitch in the game, with solid boosts to all of Stuff, Movement, and Control. A nice pitch to add to a knuckler's arsenal and a top tier pitch on its own.

5. Forkball: Gives a nice boost to Stuff, and neutral on Movement/Control.

6. Curveball: Gives a similar boost to Stuff as the forkball and knuckle curve, but it also gives a small penalty to Movement and Control.

7: Sinker: Not a good strikeout pitch with amongst the lowest boost to Stuff, but it gives the second best boost to Movement and Control after the slider.

8. Screwball: An odd pitch that gives a good boost to Stuff similar to the fork/curve/knuckle curve... but it's the most homer and walk prone pitch in the game with the biggest penalty to Movement and Control.

9. Splitter: Nothing stands out about this pitch. Small boost to Stuff, and sometimes a small penalty to Movement and Control.

10. Cutter: Has a weak affect on Stuff like the Sinker, but doesn't have the same benefit to Movement and Control (has a small penalty). Sorry Mariano, but this is the worst non-generic fastball pitch in the game.

N/A. Fastball: I can't rate the generic Fastball because it seems like there's more variables at play with this one. By some of my tests it seems like the worst strikeout pitch in the game. But the fastball is definitely affected by a pitcher's velocity (faster = better). It's hard to give a definitive ranking to this pitch without extensive testing.

Other Notes

- Oddly, if a pitcher has any rating in the generic fastball pitch, he will not receive any BABIP benefit from a knuckleball. From what I see anyway, not sure if it's a visual bug or an intended part of the game engine. So a knuckler should not add a fastball to his arsenal.

- Remember that the above pitches mostly affect the Stuff rating, and that they're already baked into the displayed STU/MOV/CON ratings. Although the screwball has the worst dip on pitcher MOV/CON, the affect is still pretty small and definitely offset by the added STU from the pitch. 95% of the time adding more pitches is better.

- Arm slot is interesting, and seems to only affect platoon splits. Submarine/Sidearm/Normal/Over-the-Top <--- From left to right, these arm slots have higher platoon splits. For example, a LHP submariner will kill LHBs.

- There seems to be some interaction between pitch types, and I can't try out all the combinations. So don't take my list as definitive. There's also probably some more hidden affects of pitches that I'm not aware of.

- These rankings are based on pitches with equal ratings. So even though a cutter isn't as good as a slider, a really good cutter (Mariano) is better than a bad slider.
Could you expand in how arm slot affect splits / platoon??

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Old 10-15-2019, 11:07 PM   #26
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Well now I'm just going to have to bookmark this thread.
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Old 10-16-2019, 02:03 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Sharkn20 View Post
Could you expand in how arm slot affect splits / platoon??
OK, here it is. A Submarine and Sidearm arm slot will have more pronounced platoon splits. Meaning that a LHB will have more trouble with a LHP Submariner, whereas a RHB will hit them nicely. Over-the-Top is more of a neutral windup, and a RHB and LHB will get roughly the same view angle of the ball coming at them. It makes sense.

I loaded up a 2014 Dodgers save and took a look at Clayton Kershaw, an Over-the-Top LHP . I snapshotted his ratings, and then changed only his arm slot to the other extreme, Submariner, and snapshotted again. See below. Same aggregate ratings, different platoon splits. Suddenly Kershaw lives in a Yellow Submarine and is lights-out against lefties and average against righties.

Remember, the order is this: Submarine/Sidearm/Normal/Over-the-Top. Some people used to think arm slot didn't do anything! Well, it does.
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Old 10-16-2019, 03:55 AM   #28
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OK, here it is. A Submarine and Sidearm arm slot will have more pronounced platoon splits. Meaning that a LHB will have more trouble with a LHP Submariner, whereas a RHB will hit them nicely. Over-the-Top is more of a neutral windup, and a RHB and LHB will get roughly the same view angle of the ball coming at them. It makes sense.



I loaded up a 2014 Dodgers save and took a look at Clayton Kershaw, an Over-the-Top LHP . I snapshotted his ratings, and then changed only his arm slot to the other extreme, Submariner, and snapshotted again. See below. Same aggregate ratings, different platoon splits. Suddenly Kershaw lives in a Yellow Submarine and is lights-out against lefties and average against righties.



Remember, the order is this: Submarine/Sidearm/Normal/Over-the-Top. Some people used to think arm slot didn't do anything! Well, it does.
This is just fantastic, thank you very much.

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