NFL 2019 Thread

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Rizon

Miami continues with the Tanking/OKC Draft Pick Hoarding by trading Fitzpatrick.

The Dolphins could hoard 10 first round picks, but they are the Dolphins and they'll find a way to screw it up. Maybe pick a kick returner with the highest pick or something.

Had to look it up. I thought u were talking about FitzMagic.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by monkeyman576

Well, the draft is a crapshoot ... Good draft scouting easily makes up for bad draft position.

Originally Posted by Rizon

The Dolphins could hoard 10 first round picks, but they are the Dolphins and they'll find a way to screw it up.

Well, that's just it. Over the last umpteen years, various GM's and coaches have made mostly poor personnel decisions, leading years of mediocrity-at-best. This regime would need to be significantly smarter - way too soon to determine - in order for the tank to succeed.

And you gotta figure that this season has two primary purposes: 1) tank to get good - and many - draft picks, and 2) develop young players. An indication of Flores' and the front office's acumen will be if some of these young players show improvement in the latter part of the season. IOW, if the Fish are just as pathetic in December as they are now, that won't inspire confidence that the current regime will be plucking gems on draft day.

[ukhotstove]

Didn't Dallas and Jimmy Johnson do the same thing in the late 80s.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

Didn't Dallas and Jimmy Johnson do the same thing in the late 80s.

They didn't tank though. They were already a last place team. They made one big trade w/Herschel Walker in '89 cause he was basically their only asset. No need to keep him if he can't help you win.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

Didn't Dallas and Jimmy Johnson do the same thing in the late 80s.

Jimmy went 1-15 in his first year in Dallas. Followed that with 7-9 mark in 1990, then 11-5 in 1991 with a Wild Card win followed by a Divisional Round loss, then back-to-back Super Bowl wins. If Flores & Co. can follow that blueprint, I'll take it!

Of course Jimmy inherited a team already - although perhaps unintentionally - in tank mode. Tom Landry's team the previous season went 3-13, therefore giving Jimmy the opportunity to draft Troy Aikman #1 overall, Daryl Johnston, Mark Stepnoski, and Tony Tolbert. (The previous year's draft under Landry & Brandt netted Michael Irvin and Ken Norton.) In the draft following the tank year the Cowboys nabbed Emitt Smith, but otherwise they didn't get much from that draft. And Smith was taken with the #17 overall pick, so it's not like the tank netted them the top pick (they forfeited the #1 overall pick by taking QB Steve Walsh in the previous year's supplemental draft.)

So I guess it's a mixed bag: Dallas' incoming regime benefited from the previous regime drafting well, and from the poor performance (3-13) of the previous regime's last season. The tank itself wasn't particularly productive from a draft perspective since Smith wasn't taken with a high first-rounder, and no other picks made a mark. On the flip side, a boneheaded move (taking Walsh and forfeiting the top pick) didn't doom them...

[Cobra Mgr]

Actually, the Cowboys got 2 HOF's, another who made All-pro & a 4th who was a long time starter & made the Pro Bowl. What Dallas got was 6 picks in the 1st 2 rounds, another in the 3rd & a 6th rounder. They gave up Walker 2 3rd rounders & a 10th rounder. Dallas used the acquired picks from the Walker trade to maneuver thru the draft and select Smith, Woodson, Russell Maryland & Kevin Smith, plus they acquired Issac Holt directly from the VIkings. He became a starter in the secondary.

So I'd say Dallas made out ahead on that deal. But I also don't think it was the grand slam it has become in legend. More like a 2 run HR to take the lead.

Once more, you have to do your homework as a GM, hope the player has the drive to match your evaluation & hope the year you tank the talent pool is deep.. Case in point, Russell Maryland. By no means a bust. But he was the 1st selection overall. You'd want more return than a single Pro Bowl from that slot. But in Dallas' defense, you look at that year's draft and not a lot stands out. from that class. So it is a risk.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Actually, the Cowboys got 2 HOF's, another who made All-pro & a 4th who was a long time starter & made the Pro Bowl. What Dallas got was 6 picks in the 1st 2 rounds, another in the 3rd & a 6th rounder. They gave up Walker 2 3rd rounders & a 10th rounder. Dallas used the acquired picks from the Walker trade to maneuver thru the draft and select Smith, Woodson, Russell Maryland & Kevin Smith, plus they acquired Issac Holt directly from the VIkings. He became a starter in the secondary.

So I'd say Dallas made out ahead on that deal. But I also don't think it was the grand slam it has become in legend. More like a 2 run HR to take the lead.

Once more, you have to do your homework as a GM, hope the player has the drive to match your evaluation & hope the year you tank the talent pool is deep.. Case in point, Russell Maryland. By no means a bust. But he was the 1st selection overall. You'd want more return than a single Pro Bowl from that slot. But in Dallas' defense, you look at that year's draft and not a lot stands out. from that class. So it is a risk.

Yep, all true. My point was just that "the tank" itself wasn't all that productive. Most of the Cowboys' talent accumulation that led to those two Super Bowl titles were not a result of "the tank." It was a result of pre-tank drafts, the Walker trade (and subsequent moves), and of course the Smith pick (which, while it immediately followed the tank season, wasn't a direct result of it).

Looking back, one would have to say that the pre-tank draft in 1989 - draft slots courtesy of the previous regime - was pretty nice and about the best haul you can expect!

[Hrycaj]

Does it really matter how many draft picks a team has if they can't develop the talent they draft? Furthermore, how does the culture and surrounding environment of the franchise influence a players development? Clearly, I think it plays a very big role.

Players are not robots and putting them in environments where they are comfortable is integral to their development. I think it is funny when fans say "My team missed out on this all-pro/all-star player that they could have drafted but didn't." Well I'm not sure if your team did draft that player he ends up being that big of a star. Franchises with established cultures do matter. The argument that current players do not care about where a franchise sits historically is not true. There are desirable destinations that are based on historical mystique. I'm not a Yankees fan but it would be silly to argue that their mystique does not play a role in their success. They haven't has a losing season since 1992. Pretty solid run. Leagues are designed to have a turnover of power. The worst draft highest yet a lot of these franchises continue to wallow at the bottom.

I'm not saying it is the be all end all. (New York Knicks come to mind) You still need competent people in the right places from the front office to the dugout and sideline, but I think culture and environment are undersold.

[damientheomen3]

Originally Posted by Hrycaj

Does it really matter how many draft picks a team has if they can't develop the talent they draft? Furthermore, how does the culture and surrounding environment of the franchise influence a players development? Clearly, I think it plays a very big role.

Players are not robots and putting them in environments where they are comfortable is integral to their development. I think it is funny when fans say "My team missed out on this all-pro/all-star player that they could have drafted but didn't." Well I'm not sure if your team did draft that player he ends up being that big of a star. Franchises with established cultures do matter. The argument that current players do not care about where a franchise sits historically is not true. There are desirable destinations that are based on historical mystique. I'm not a Yankees fan but it would be silly to argue that their mystique does not play a role in their success. They haven't has a losing season since 1992. Pretty solid run. Leagues are designed to have a turnover of power. The worst draft highest yet a lot of these franchises continue to wallow at the bottom.

I'm not saying it is the be all end all. (New York Knicks come to mind) You still need competent people in the right places from the front office to the dugout and sideline, but I think culture and environment are undersold.

100%. Hearing people say that type of thing or seeing articles/videos like "How the hell were 24 players drafted before Mike Trout?!" annoys me. Especially in a game like football, where so much is scheme and coaching dependent, there are way too many factors to just say "oh man, my team is stupid for passing on that pass rusher 16th overall that developed into a star".

In the same vein, it bothers me how, for example, if Daniel Jones is good for the Giants, fans and sports writers are gonna act like they weren't all blasting them for the pick for months. We've already seen plenty of it through his strong preaeason. People are so quick to glob onto a narrative and then act like that context doesn't apply when they're proven wrong.

[monkeyman576]

Houston and Portland both passed on Michael Jordan in the NBA draft.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by damientheomen3

While you're right that the draft is a big enough crapshoot that tanking isn't worth it,

That's debatable. Would it be better if they went 8-8 instead of having 3 first round picks next draft? I'm a Cowboys fan, I know what it's like to do this 8-8 year after year.

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Tanking to get better players works better in the NBA. But tanking is still valuable in the NFL because you get an easier schedule the next season as well as better draft position.

Not as easy as it used to be. The difference is a whole 2 games. Also, every team will play 4 first place teams, 4 second place teams, 4 third place teams, and 4 fourth place teams. So record doesn't affect the schedule that much anymore.

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Had to look it up. I thought u were talking about FitzMagic.

He's now FitzTragic.

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

Didn't Dallas and Jimmy Johnson do the same thing in the late 80s.

Like Cobra said, Dallas was already garbage. They wanted the draft picks. They were in last place with Walker, they can be in last place without him.

[dkgo]

Originally Posted by Hrycaj

Does it really matter how many draft picks a team has if they can't develop the talent they draft? Furthermore, how does the culture and surrounding environment of the franchise influence a players development? Clearly, I think it plays a very big role.

Funny how the teams considered to have good "culture" just happen to be the ones with hall of fame quarterbacks and coaches.

Every "culture" is good or bad until it isn't.

[Hrycaj]

Originally Posted by dkgo

Funny how the teams considered to have good "culture" just happen to be the ones with hall of fame quarterbacks and coaches.

Every "culture" is good or bad until it isn't.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. When you lose the cornerstones of what makes said culture it could fall apart very quickly. Yet, there are franchises in whatever sport you want to use as an example, that have been very successful for decades, who seem to be able to avoid the pitfalls of long competitive layoffs in a system that is built against that. Athletics have changed. Environment plays a key factor. Maybe it always did and it's just being utilized more.

[vrobx1]

Will the parents who left their children at NRG Stadium please come get them before they sack Deshaun Watson again?

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

They didn't tank though. They were already a last place team. They made one big trade w/Herschel Walker in '89 cause he was basically their only asset. No need to keep him if he can't help you win.

The Dolphins didn't win last season with the players they traded, so same could be said of them as with Walker. Dallas stockpiled picks for 91, Miami are doing the same for next year.

Dallas were in an harder division than what Miami were last season, Phoenix Cardinals who finished 4th in the NFC East would have finished 2nd tied with Miami last season. Also Miami have had 1 winning season since 2008, so there as near to garbage as Dallas were. Oh that 1 winning season comprised 1 win against a team who had a winning record, the other wins came against teams like Cleveland 1-15, Jets 5-11, 49ers 2-14, Chargers 5-11. Only thing I see different from the 1989 Cowboys and 2019 Dolphins is the internet and media sheep that weren't around for Dallas but are for Miami.

I mean what would you have done with the Dolphins? Far as I see you have two options.

A) Bring in some high priced free agents to make a team above average and chase the Patriots.

Or

B) Stockpile draft picks to hopefully build a better team in a couple of years, in a Patriots division that may not be led by there coach and QB of the present

[damientheomen3]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

That's debatable. Would it be better if they went 8-8 instead of having 3 first round picks next draft? I'm a Cowboys fan, I know what it's like to do this 8-8 year after year.

Considering the Dolphins would have probably needed to trade a few first round picks to get that preseason roster to 8-8, it's much better for them to tank in this case.

What I meant is that if your plan is to tank and set yourself up to pick the best player on the board aside from quarterback, that's where the risk comes. Miami legitimately only has Xavien Howard and Mike Gesicki (debatable) as foundational players right now. Consider that a decade ago the Dolphins nearly went 0-16, and this year's roster is probably worse than that one was.

Having thought more about it though, I'm more on the Dolphins side than before. For some reason with them trading for Pittsburgh's 1st rounder, I didn't consider the fact that Big Ben is out for the season. Pittsburgh is already 0-2 and it's possible they just gave Miami a top 10 pick or better for Fitzpatrick. While Minkah was regarded as a fringe-top 10 talent coming out, his play has been a bit disappointing so far and Pittsburgh could be screwed at the QB position for a year or two if Mason Rudolph sucks and Ben doesn't come back or isn't the same.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

The Dolphins didn't win last season with the players they traded, so same could be said of them as with Walker. Dallas stockpiled picks for 91, Miami are doing the same for next year.

Dallas were in an harder division than what Miami were last season, Phoenix Cardinals who finished 4th in the NFC East would have finished 2nd tied with Miami last season. Also Miami have had 1 winning season since 2008, so there as near to garbage as Dallas were. Oh that 1 winning season comprised 1 win against a team who had a winning record, the other wins came against teams like Cleveland 1-15, Jets 5-11, 49ers 2-14, Chargers 5-11. Only thing I see different from the 1989 Cowboys and 2019 Dolphins is the internet and media sheep that weren't around for Dallas but are for Miami.

I mean what would you have done with the Dolphins? Far as I see you have two options.

A) Bring in some high priced free agents to make a team above average and chase the Patriots.

Or

B) Stockpile draft picks to hopefully build a better team in a couple of years, in a Patriots division that may not be led by there coach and QB of the present

I didn't point out Dallas wasn't tanking to criticize Miami. I believe in tanking w/in reason. I'm a Carolina fan hoping the Panthers trade Luke Kuechly to get the process rolling. I just don't see Dallas' method being the same as what Miami did. Tanking, in my eye, is being bad on purpose in order to get a more favorable position in the off season. That wasn't what Dallas was doing. That's what Miami is doing.

JJx's2 came in as a new regime, a building project, the foundation already clean, w/young players already in place and throwing them into the fire. Landry won only 3 games the previous year. If you want, you can say they "inadvertently" tanked. But that wasn't what they were trying to do. If they were doing that in the past, don't you think Jerry Jones would have repeated the process in the past 20 seasons they have been mediocre?

Miami has the same front office from 2018, is stripping it down from mediocrity (7 wins), getting worse on purpose, w/no indication they expect half the roster to still be in Miami in 2021. There are no known Irvins, Aikmans, Nortons, Newtons. This is tanking. And again, I'm fine with it. I see no benefit in winning 7 games at the expense of winning it all 2-3 years from now. Being .500 can put you further away from a title than losing 15.

[Ragnar]

As I've mentioned before, and as the above post mentions, being 7-9 to 9-7 is probably the worst record you could have when trying to improve your team. That's just the way the system is built. You're best option is through free agency and that can be costly.

Oddly enough the Cowboys resurgence came after a 4-12 season. They got some pretty good guys with those picks.

[Cobra Mgr]

Nike drops AB.

[Cobra Mgr]

"Stay off Tom"