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Old 11-20-2016, 02:39 AM   #1
jpeters1734
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What the heck?!? Is historical minors even playable?

I started playing a historical league beginning in 1919 as the pirates and got all the way through 1930. Then in '31 I lose my affiliate and all the players got released!!

Is this mode even playable because of that or is it a known glitch? Is there a work around? That kind of crap makes me glad my primary way to play is fictional.
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:59 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by jpeters1734 View Post
I started playing a historical league beginning in 1919 as the pirates and got all the way through 1930. Then in '31 I lose my affiliate and all the players got released!!

Is this mode even playable because of that or is it a known glitch? Is there a work around? That kind of crap makes me glad my primary way to play is fictional.
The real life Pirates played 1932 without a minor league affiliate. All their minor league guys basically got released in reality, though they added another team in 1932.

The game's just following the historical precedent here.
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Old 11-20-2016, 07:07 AM   #3
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The real life Pirates played 1932 without a minor league affiliate. All their minor league guys basically got released in reality, though they added another team in 1932.

The game's just following the historical precedent here.
Bet those real life guys in 1932 wishes they could have stuck to a fictional world instead of dealing with that crap of real life.

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Old 11-20-2016, 08:36 AM   #4
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The real life Pirates played 1932 without a minor league affiliate. All their minor league guys basically got released in reality, though they added another team in 1932.

The game's just following the historical precedent here.
So in 1932 the Pirates are only allowed to carry 25 players? Why wouldn't the players simply go to the Pirates reserve roster? I'm sorry, but I seriously doubt there's one historical player among us, that wants the game to follow that historical precedent. Does OOTP warn the human manager that they will be losing a minor league affiliate and all its players? Does the AI take steps to deal with this situation? I doubt it.

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Old 11-20-2016, 09:03 AM   #5
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Unless you're using real transactions, you're probably playing the game as a gm/manager. That means you're signing, trading for and developing players in an effort to build a winning franchise. So, having players disappear from your system due to some historical precedent is not acceptable. If the Pirates lose their affiliate in 1931 according to history, then before that affiliate disappears, all the players should be moved to the Pirates reserve roster.
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Old 11-20-2016, 12:17 PM   #6
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Those players who were "released" may have still been owned by the Pirates though they played on loan to other teams. This happened a lot back in the day. Currently OOTP does not support loaned players.

The question when playing a historical league is how historical do you want it. I'd like to see loaned players supported.
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Old 11-20-2016, 12:43 PM   #7
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Unless you're using real transactions, you're probably playing the game as a gm/manager. That means you're signing, trading for and developing players in an effort to build a winning franchise. So, having players disappear from your system due to some historical precedent is not acceptable. If the Pirates lose their affiliate in 1931 according to history, then before that affiliate disappears, all the players should be moved to the Pirates reserve roster.
exactly, which was the worst part. I spent a lot of time on my minor league players only to have them be released without me knowing.

I'm fine with the historical precedent, but I should have been notified at least. There wasnt even anything add to the transaction logs. It was just, players gone
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Old 11-20-2016, 01:15 PM   #8
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Those players who were "released" may have still been owned by the Pirates though they played on loan to other teams. This happened a lot back in the day. Currently OOTP does not support loaned players.

The question when playing a historical league is how historical do you want it. I'd like to see loaned players supported.
I'd like teams to have players, period. Unless I'm using real transactions(not even available with real minors), I want my sim to become a league of it's own, with its very own history. I want teams to draft, sign, develop, trade etc. etc. players with goal of winning a championship. I don't want players to be released simply because a team lost an affiliate. Support of loaned players is a really cool idea, but it's something I simply can't see the AI ever being able to effectively make use of. In the end, I'm guessing the majority of OOTP players use this game as a GM/Manager simulation, with the goal of running a franchise over multiple seasons building it into a championship caliber squad. I also bet the majority of folks that were excited about the introduction of historical minors were so, because it would add depth to the historical experience. More players, the option of having to decide when to bring up draft pick etc. I for one think the minor league player database was the most important addition, not the historical minors themselves.

If I start a historical sim in 1919 with the hope of running the Tigers, I want to be able to sign a young Kiki Cuyler and build a franchise around him. I don't want to proceed to 1922 and find out he's no longer on my team, because the Tigers dropped an affiliate for a season or 2. If I decide to add free agency to a 1920's historical league and it becomes clear I can no longer afford to employ a Ty Cobb, I want to be able to trade him for prospects and be able to maintain control over those prospects. I don't want to lose them in the name of a historical precedent.

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Old 11-20-2016, 01:38 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by David Watts View Post
Unless you're using real transactions, you're probably playing the game as a gm/manager. That means you're signing, trading for and developing players in an effort to build a winning franchise. So, having players disappear from your system due to some historical precedent is not acceptable. If the Pirates lose their affiliate in 1931 according to history, then before that affiliate disappears, all the players should be moved to the Pirates reserve roster.
Except for one thing: the reserve limit, meaning the number of players a club can have under contract at one time, was 40 players. So, at most, Pittsburgh could have retained 15 of its minor league assortment, and it also would have been paying them even though they wouldn't be playing in any games.

Given what was happening in the early 1930s, i.e. the Great Depression, cutting costs was the order of the day. Major League clubs cut the salaries of the players on their active rosters, and, in 1932, reduced the active roster size to 23 players for the central portion of the season (clubs could still carry up to 40 players, or its entire reserve amount, from opening day through May 15th and for September).

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Old 11-20-2016, 01:49 PM   #10
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Except for one thing: the reserve limit, meaning the number of players a club can have under contract at one time, was 40 players. So, at most, Pittsburgh could have retained 15 of its minor league assortment, and it also would have been paying them even though they wouldn't be playing in any games.

Given what was happening in the early 1930s, i.e. the Great Depression, cutting costs was the order of the day. Major League clubs cut the salaries of the players on their active rosters, and, in 1932, reduced the active roster size to 23 players for the central portion of the season (clubs could still carry up to 40 players, or its entire reserve amount, from opening day through May 15th and for September).
i don't dispute the realism. My issue is not knowing that I'd lose all my prospects without warning. Had I known, maybe i would of wanted to cut a veteran and keep a prospect. Sure I can look at baseball reference, but is that really an acceptable solution? Does the AI have access to that information?

edit: Thanks for the info about the reserve roster limit. I had no idea about that. honestly, i didn't even know that they had reserve rosters. I always thought it was just an ootp thing. so when did the reserve roster go away in real life?
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Old 11-20-2016, 01:55 PM   #11
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i understand what's happening. The game is just doing what it's designed to do. My question is: Is there a way around it to keep players, or are they just gone to FA?

maybe if we knew ahead of time what affiliates were to disappear, we could make a list of players, and put them on Reserve, or 40 man after the fact - using the commish mode.

i guess, short of looking up which teams have affiliates each year, we're sort of in the proverbial dark? Bummer, but i guess i can use BB reference to see the minors each year. in case anyone else is interested, i found a spot where the teams and their affiliates are listed by year ....

Minor League Affiliations | Baseball-Reference.com
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:00 PM   #12
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Except for one thing: the reserve limit, meaning the number of players a club can have under contract at one time, was 40 players. So, at most, Pittsburgh could have retained 15 of its minor league assortment, and it also would have been paying them even though they wouldn't be playing in any games.

Given what was happening in the early 1930s, i.e. the Great Depression, cutting costs was the order of the day. Major League clubs cut the salaries of the players on their active rosters, and, in 1932, reduced the active roster size to 23 players for the central portion of the season (clubs could still carry up to 40 players, or its entire reserve amount, from opening day through May 15th and for September).
All of that is fine until I hit the space bar the very first time and instead of something Le Grande Orange can investigate the history of and expound upon on the internet, my league becomes something known only to my little HP pc. My very own world. Limited rosters are fine if one enjoys playing with low to no injuries, but I'm just not a fan of doing so. I want the possibility of Ty Cobb having a 1914 type season in which he plays in only 98 games. I don't want a shortstop catching for half a season, because the only 3 catchers on a limited roster get hurt.
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:10 PM   #13
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i understand what's happening. The game is just doing what it's designed to do. My question is: Is there a way around it to keep players, or are they just gone to FA?

maybe if we knew ahead of time what affiliates were to disappear, we could make a list of players, and put them on Reserve, or 40 man after the fact - using the commish mode.

i guess, short of looking up which teams have affiliates each year, we're sort of in the proverbial dark? Bummer, but i guess i can use BB reference to see the minors each year. in case anyone else is interested, i found a spot where the teams and their affiliates are listed by year ....

Minor League Affiliations | Baseball-Reference.com
The problem with that is, the AI isn't going to do anything to deal with an upcoming affiliate loss. So, you as a human can dominate by simply taking advantage of your historical knowledge.

This is a case of the game making this great addition to the game, but then handcuffing it by allowing history to dictate its use. We as users have the ability to set the game to follow historical expansion. In doing so, we can either have the game assign the original expansion players to each team, or we have the option to hold an expansion draft and let teams take on a history of their own. Why should historical minors be any different?
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:17 PM   #14
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i understand what's happening. The game is just doing what it's designed to do. My question is: Is there a way around it to keep players, or are they just gone to FA?

maybe if we knew ahead of time what affiliates were to disappear, we could make a list of players, and put them on Reserve, or 40 man after the fact - using the commish mode.

i guess, short of looking up which teams have affiliates each year, we're sort of in the proverbial dark? Bummer, but i guess i can use BB reference to see the minors each year. in case anyone else is interested, i found a spot where the teams and their affiliates are listed by year ....

Minor League Affiliations | Baseball-Reference.com
sure we can all use baseball reference but what about the AI? how does the AI deal with this? I think that's the core of the issue. Does the AI choose to release the players when losing an affiliate or do they just get released by the game? I suspect it's the latter since there's no history of the player's getting released. Maybe they should just get put on a DFA list.
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:38 PM   #15
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Is this mode even playable because of that or is it a known glitch? Is there a work around? .
not trying to resolve the issue with the game. i agree it's less than ideal, to put it mildly. ... merely offered a work around.
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:40 PM   #16
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Come 1932 when many leagues blink back on there are not enough players to fill rosters as if the Pirates had the only affiliated team in that league all the players on every team in the league went away.

I have asked that once a league has been established it remain so until it historically goes away forever.

If we cannot get loaned players added then perhaps the minors would need to have their own free agent roster stocking draft?

OOTP17 concentrated on getting the minors in. Perhaps OOTP18 could concentrate on making them easy and fun?
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:42 PM   #17
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Come 1932 when many leagues blink back on there are not enough players to fill rosters as if the Pirates had the only affiliated team in that league all the players on every team in the league went away.

I have asked that once a league has been established it remain so until it historically goes away forever.

If we cannot get loaned players added then perhaps the minors would need to have their own free agent roster stocking draft?

OOTP17 concentrated on getting the minors in. Perhaps OOTP18 could concentrate on making them easy and fun?
i like these ideas. Good stuff!! Crossing my fingers for 18 in a lot of ways, but this is definitely one i'd like to see addressed.
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Old 11-20-2016, 04:14 PM   #18
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Come 1932 when many leagues blink back on there are not enough players to fill rosters as if the Pirates had the only affiliated team in that league all the players on every team in the league went away.

I have asked that once a league has been established it remain so until it historically goes away forever.

If we cannot get loaned players added then perhaps the minors would need to have their own free agent roster stocking draft?

OOTP17 concentrated on getting the minors in. Perhaps OOTP18 could concentrate on making them easy and fun?
This would be so great. Playability is definitely the key.
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Old 11-20-2016, 07:11 PM   #19
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If player loans turn out to be impossible another approach could be independent-affiliated teams.

I ran a query last year of all the independent teams and a large number turned out to be de-facto affiliated teams as their rosters were made up largely of players who were on loan from a single MLB franchise in the pre-working agreement days. Perhaps this would be a useful addition?
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Old 11-20-2016, 07:25 PM   #20
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Still think it would be great if we had the option to turn off historical minors, but still import the minor league players to use with generic OOTP created minors. In 1919 we wouldn't have the Texas League, but all the players would still be available for the draft. 1921, the Pacific Coast players would start arriving. We could start small with 2 levels of minors and as more and more players arrive, we could add levels. This would also allow us to create fictional leagues using real players, both MLB and Minors.
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