OOTP 17 Update #9, Version 17.11.70 Officially Available Now!

[zigyzig]

When is the Update Version 17.11.70 available for the Mac through the Apple Mac store?

[JoeGoNets]

Originally Posted by t-bone shuffle

I'm seeing this as well.

Perhaps a partial solution to this problem would be as follows:

Do not replace relief pitcher X with relief pitcher Y, if X and Y are of the same handedness, unless relief pitcher X has faced at least 3 batters.

A couple of exceptions:

1. Allow replacement of X with Y if Y is the closer and it has become a save situation.

2. Obviously, in an NL park, do not refrain from pinch hitting for relief pitcher X because of this rule.

If the AI followed this rule it would be better than now, I think. Very occasionally you might see in real baseball a pitcher come in and walk 2 batters and get replaced by a pitcher of the same hand, but I think it is rare.

Alternatively, if the AI had to follow the warm-up rule (it doesn't really, correct?), that could help the silly eighth inning relief pitcher carousel I sometimes see.

[Libid21]

Will this update allow me to play in the league starting from the Trade Deadline?

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by JoeGoNets

There remain problems with AI bullpen roles, or at least bullpen usage. In my MLB Quickstart, for the second time in a month, the computer had to bring in a catcher to pitch in a close game because all the relievers were wasted with 0.1 and 0.2 IP outings. The AI way too often replaces relief pitcher X with relief pitcher Y in a close game even when X and Y are both right-handed (or both left-handed). I think perhaps the game defaults to "whoever is most likely to get the batter out" in a late, close game, but these "change a righty for a righty after 0.1 IP" situations just don't happen a lot in real life, in my opinion.

For the past year or two, during beta testing, I documented some of these late-inning bullpen usage problems. Burning through relief pitchers unnecessarily is a real issue. To my knowledge, the problems have still not been addressed.

[pstrickert]

In addition, when the SP is knocked out of the game early, the AI makes too many pitching changes during the rest of the game, instead of having a long relief specialist eat up some innings.

[pstrickert]

Oh, and the other issue is lifting a relief pitcher after one out in an inning just because he's reached his pitch limit. IRL, managers usually bring in a new pitcher at the start of an inning if the previous reliever is getting near his pitch limit. It looks strange in OOTP when a relief pitcher records the first out and then is replaced by another relief pitcher of the same handedness.

[Curve Ball Dave]

Count me among those with a Top Prospects lists bug.

It works fine with the 30 teams that make up MLB as we know it, but not for the 6 teams I added to make my 36 team league. This was never a problem before the latest patch.

[MKG1734]

Sigh : /

I came on here hoping to pay for the game for the 5th straight year ... hoping that so many of the problems (even dating back several years) had been fixed ...

And yet, from this thread I see:

-AI bullpen usage as essentially game-breaking
-Roster management essentially game-breaking whereby players are released upon returning from the DL
-Top Prospects bug
-...among other (long-standing, even) issues

Please Markus, Matt, and development team .... re-write the AI roster management system and the in-game roster usage before working on anything new for next year's release. If not, you'll have more people like me next year (not purchasing the game).

I sincerely hope to come back next year to see these necessary improvements have been made ...

[curt]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

In addition, when the SP is knocked out of the game early, the AI makes too many pitching changes during the rest of the game, instead of having a long relief specialist eat up some innings.

I play out every game, pitch by pitch. I have knocked out starters early in the game several times and the AI has thrown in a reliever/emergency starter who ends up throwing 3 innings of relief. Are you guys simulating games?

[curt]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

Oh, and the other issue is lifting a relief pitcher after one out in an inning just because he's reached his pitch limit. IRL, managers usually bring in a new pitcher at the start of an inning if the previous reliever is getting near his pitch limit. It looks strange in OOTP when a relief pitcher records the first out and then is replaced by another relief pitcher of the same handedness.

I haven't seen this either in my league. Again, I play out every game. I do see the AI use a LHP against my LHB and then switch to a RHP for my RHB in succession.

[t-bone shuffle]

Originally Posted by curt

I play out every game, pitch by pitch. I have knocked out starters early in the game several times and the AI has thrown in a reliever/emergency starter who ends up throwing 3 innings of relief. Are you guys simulating games?

I'm not. I play out all my games, and way too often, lately (last couple of patches), I've watched the AI decimate it's bullpen by constant 1batter/1pitcher approach. Almost always in the 7th inning or later.

Interestingly, in monitoring this situation, I had a look at other bullpens, on various given days and it seems it could be an issue for teams only playing against me. Most AI bullpens that hadn't faced my team in a seven day span were not over-taxed.

But there's absolutely no doubt that I'm seeing the AI mishandle it's bullpen against me. Not always, but too often, and absolutely, at least to me, it's a very recent issue.

[Matt Arnold]

I'm not going to lie and say I love the bullpen logic that we have now, but I can guarantee you that they don't act any differently against you than against other teams (other than the obvious case if your team tends to put more runners on than other do, or have a different lefty-righty mix, etc...), and it really hasn't changed in the last few patches.

It's definitely something that merits a larger look, but it's also incredibly complicated as it really is at the heart of trying to figure out how a human thinks. It's not simply "which of these 5 or 6 guys should I pitch in this situation", never mind the fact that whatever logic is there has to also factor in whether you're playing 1890s ball where teams essentially don't have relievers, or modern day where teams have 8 guys in the pen, to everything in between. It's on the list to look at in the future, but we'll pretty much always have weird cases that make you scratch your head. Of course, real MLB managers do too, so we can't make the logic too perfect

[t-bone shuffle]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

I'm not going to lie and say I love the bullpen logic that we have now, but I can guarantee you that they don't act any differently against you than against other teams (other than the obvious case if your team tends to put more runners on than other do, or have a different lefty-righty mix, etc...), and it really hasn't changed in the last few patches.

It's definitely something that merits a larger look, but it's also incredibly complicated as it really is at the heart of trying to figure out how a human thinks. It's not simply "which of these 5 or 6 guys should I pitch in this situation", never mind the fact that whatever logic is there has to also factor in whether you're playing 1890s ball where teams essentially don't have relievers, or modern day where teams have 8 guys in the pen, to everything in between. It's on the list to look at in the future, but we'll pretty much always have weird cases that make you scratch your head. Of course, real MLB managers do too, so we can't make the logic too perfect

Thanks Matt, your response is really appreciated. I cant begin to imagine the complexities involved, and my comments weren't meant as criticism, but really rather just commentary.

I am though, going to hold my ground and stand by the observation that this issue is a 17 one. The game I'm currently playing is one that originated in 15 and has imported to 16 and now 17. I play out all my teams games (8 season's worth now), and the issues we are discussing are ones I've personally only seen in 17. FWIW.

Thanks again for the input.

[Padreman]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

I'm not going to lie and say I love the bullpen logic that we have now, but I can guarantee you that they don't act any differently against you than against other teams (other than the obvious case if your team tends to put more runners on than other do, or have a different lefty-righty mix, etc...), and it really hasn't changed in the last few patches.

It's definitely something that merits a larger look, but it's also incredibly complicated as it really is at the heart of trying to figure out how a human thinks. It's not simply "which of these 5 or 6 guys should I pitch in this situation", never mind the fact that whatever logic is there has to also factor in whether you're playing 1890s ball where teams essentially don't have relievers, or modern day where teams have 8 guys in the pen, to everything in between. It's on the list to look at in the future, but we'll pretty much always have weird cases that make you scratch your head. Of course, real MLB managers do too, so we can't make the logic too perfect

Do you think adding a pitching count to long reliever it will actually allow him to pitch more than one inning? And would adding a "mop-up" role into the game help not to waste better pitchers and will bring him in even if tired?

[drksd4848]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

I'm not going to lie and say I love the bullpen logic that we have now, but I can guarantee you that they don't act any differently against you than against other teams (other than the obvious case if your team tends to put more runners on than other do, or have a different lefty-righty mix, etc...), and it really hasn't changed in the last few patches.

It's definitely something that merits a larger look, but it's also incredibly complicated as it really is at the heart of trying to figure out how a human thinks. It's not simply "which of these 5 or 6 guys should I pitch in this situation", never mind the fact that whatever logic is there has to also factor in whether you're playing 1890s ball where teams essentially don't have relievers, or modern day where teams have 8 guys in the pen, to everything in between. It's on the list to look at in the future, but we'll pretty much always have weird cases that make you scratch your head. Of course, real MLB managers do too, so we can't make the logic too perfect

Call it "John Farrell Baseball V. 17.11" The AI makes every worst decision possible after the 7th inning...

Actually, don't... The OOTP AI is actually smarter than John Farrell.

[JMDurron]

I'm joining Curt in the "I play out every game as well, and I'm not seeing this issue in my leagues" bucket on this particular issue. I also put on more baserunners than the average AI team by taking pitches, and I still see long relief appearances that go multiple innings, sometimes even sticking with a tired reliever to try to leave a "spare" rested reliever in the bullpen during a blowout.

The only time I've seen aggressive (multiple relievers facing a single batter) bullpen AI management has been when it was after the 7th inning in a close game, and the AI did so to improve platoon matchups, so the logic tracked for me.

[highandoutside]

Originally Posted by JMDurron

I'm joining Curt in the "I play out every game as well, and I'm not seeing this issue in my leagues" bucket on this particular issue. I also put on more baserunners than the average AI team by taking pitches, and I still see long relief appearances that go multiple innings, sometimes even sticking with a tired reliever to try to leave a "spare" rested reliever in the bullpen during a blowout.

The only time I've seen aggressive (multiple relievers facing a single batter) bullpen AI management has been when it was after the 7th inning in a close game, and the AI did so to improve platoon matchups, so the logic tracked for me.

Just to let you know, you really are giving yourself an advantage by taking a lot of pitches. It's a known issue and an way to "beat" the CPU by exploiting a bug. It really is designed to be used in those narrow set of situations when you absolutely don't want your batter to swing. Otherwise, you're going to rack up a ton of artificial deep counts and walks

[highandoutside]

I just noticed that with the new patch pitches move at different speeds and curveballs appear to break. Have I missed this before Or is it new with the update? Either way it is a really nice addition and the 3D continues to evolve nicely.

[dannibalcorpse]

Just noticed a small new thing I really like - second year of an MLB game, the HOF voting remembers the guys you voted for last year that didn't make it, and automatically populates your ballot with them. It's a small tweak but definitely a welcome one!

[JMDurron]

Originally Posted by highandoutside

Just to let you know, you really are giving yourself an advantage by taking a lot of pitches. It's a known issue and an way to "beat" the CPU by exploiting a bug. It really is designed to be used in those narrow set of situations when you absolutely don't want your batter to swing. Otherwise, you're going to rack up a ton of artificial deep counts and walks

I'm aware, but I appreciate the thought.