"Refuse minors assignment" only works for human players

[endgame]

What escapes me altogether is how one determines an AI player refuses or does not refuse demotion. I can't imagine this being visible through any means.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by endgame

What escapes me altogether is how one determines an AI player refuses or does not refuse demotion. I can't imagine this being visible through any means.

It's pretty obvious. Any player with the right to refuse a demotion who is demoted has waived that right. If he's released, then he likely exercised his right to refuse the demotion. The OP is saying every single AI-controlled player accepts the demotion, therefore every single AI-controlled player waives his right to refuse the demotion.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

It's pretty obvious. Any player with the right to refuse a demotion who is demoted has waived that right. If he's released, then he likely exercised his right to refuse the demotion. The OP is saying every single AI-controlled player accepts the demotion, therefore every single AI-controlled player waives his right to refuse the demotion.

So what we can't measure, given your obvious illustration, are those who refuse and are then kept on the active roster. Doesn't that refute a 100% hypothesis?

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by endgame

So what we can't measure, given your obvious illustration, are those who refuse and are then kept on the active roster. Doesn't that refute a 100% hypothesis?

Which is why I think it might be important to watch waivers, as many of these high priced players may very well sit there for a few days prior to being returned to the active roster.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Which is why I think it might be important to watch waivers, as many of these high priced players may very well sit there for a few days prior to being returned to the active roster.

Or they don't. On a few occasions when I receive the Refuses to be Demoted response, when I haven't traded him (which is another avenue difficult to verify actual reason for trade) I've often left him on the roster for an indefinite period until I have a reasonably alternative. In some cases, I simply leave him there. Perhaps his contract runs out at the end of the year, for example.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by endgame

So what we can't measure, given your obvious illustration, are those who refuse and are then kept on the active roster. Doesn't that refute a 100% hypothesis?

Not necessarily. If the player in question is out of options and has to be DFA'd, he lands on waivers and you can track him before he can refuse the demotion. If he has options remaining, which is a real possibility, he can refuse a demotion with no transaction trail (DFA, waivers).

So it may refute a 100% hypothesis, but if it's true that players with the right to refuse are clearing waivers and being sent down every time, there's still a problem.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Not necessarily. If the player in question is out of options and has to be DFA'd, he lands on waivers and you can track him before he can refuse the demotion. If he has options remaining, which is a real possibility, he can refuse a demotion with no transaction trail (DFA, waivers).

So it may refute a 100% hypothesis, but if it's true that players with the right to refuse are clearing waivers and being sent down every time, there's still a problem.

I understand; just trying to familiarize myself with the data gathering. Thanks for the responses.

[PSUColonel]

I have been running through the league transactions log, and it seems to me things are working properly, with the AI at times having to retain players on the 25 man roster, while in other the instances the player accepts a minor league assignment. It seems higher priced players have a much greater chance of not accepting a minor league assignment (as it should be...after all, they have leverage) I came to this conclusion simply by studying all the players which had been placed on waivers. I could be wrong in my observations, but it appears to me on the surface, things are as they should be. Anyone else see something different?

[atl_braves]

Originally Posted by endgame

What escapes me altogether is how one determines an AI player refuses or does not refuse demotion. I can't imagine this being visible through any means.

Well, if the player has the right to refuse, and he goes from a major league roster to a minor league roster after clearing waivers... then there you have it. He didn't exercise his right to refuse. That's the only way he could end up on a minor league roster (excluding rehab assignments).

[PSUColonel]

All braves....have you gone through your league transaction log and checked what happened to players on waivers?

[Ron.]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I have been running through the league transactions log, and it seems to me things are working properly

All you have to do is look at your aging superstars to see that it's not working like it should. In my league Bryce Harper played out the last two years of his contract ENTIRELY in AAA. Mike Trout had 55 AAA games his last season. Rowdy Tellez had 652 HR after his age 35 season, coming off a 55 HR season. He started his age 36 season in AAA and only played 29 games in the majors that year, none the next.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by atl_braves

The only fathomable reason that a player wouldn't exercise it (accepting a minors assignment) is because of a roster wrinkle that doesn't exist in OOTP (they can become FAs at the end of the season).

I think you're overstating the significance of that rule. The option to become a free agent at year's end is not important. If a player is outrighted to the minors, he either does not have a guaranteed contract past the end of the season, in which case he's going to become a ml free agent anyway (he almost always has the service time), or he does have a guaranteed contract, in which case he would never elect to become a free agent because he's a minor league player earning a Major League pay check. When a player is optioned and has the right to refuse, the team isn't going to pay a AAA guy an arbitration wage the following year, so he's getting non-tendered if he doesn't declare free agency on his own.

Some players do accept an optional assignment even with the right to refuse, probably because they think they still have a chance in the organization if they work out a few things in the minors. Casey McGehee accepted an assignment last year, for example.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Ron.

All you have to do is look at your aging superstars to see that it's not working like it should. In my league Bryce Harper played out the last two years of his contract ENTIRELY in AAA. Mike Trout had 55 AAA games his last season. Rowdy Tellez had 652 HR after his age 35 season, coming off a 55 HR season. He started his age 36 season in AAA and only played 29 games in the majors that year, none the next.

what did their ratings look like?

[NotMuchTime]

Originally Posted by Ron.

All you have to do is look at your aging superstars to see that it's not working like it should. In my league Bryce Harper played out the last two years of his contract ENTIRELY in AAA. Mike Trout had 55 AAA games his last season. Rowdy Tellez had 652 HR after his age 35 season, coming off a 55 HR season. He started his age 36 season in AAA and only played 29 games in the majors that year, none the next.

This^ OOTP could care less if a player has a long storied history with just one team or MLB in general. OOTP could care less if it's Cal Ripken, David Ortiz, Derick Jeter, etc... Teams don't sign a guy (JJ Hardy comes to mind) to a 3 or 4 year extension and then send them to AAA. OOTP has no problem with it.

[atl_braves]

Originally Posted by injury log

I think you're overstating the significance of that rule. The option to become a free agent at year's end is not important. If a player is outrighted to the minors, he either does not have a guaranteed contract past the end of the season, in which case he's going to become a ml free agent anyway (he almost always has the service time), or he does have a guaranteed contract, in which case he would never elect to become a free agent because he's a minor league player earning a Major League pay check. When a player is optioned and has the right to refuse, the team isn't going to pay a AAA guy an arbitration wage the following year, so he's getting non-tendered if he doesn't declare free agency on his own.

This is the point of having the right to refuse. Players never choose to "elect free agency," in which case they would forfeit the remainder of their salary. Instead, they force the organization's hand by refusing the assignment. If a team chooses to release a player, his salary is fully guaranteed.

Originally Posted by injury log

Some players do accept an optional assignment even with the right to refuse, probably because they think they still have a chance in the organization if they work out a few things in the minors. Casey McGehee accepted an assignment last year, for example.

Fair enough, but a. I challenge you to find one other instance of this happening and b. keep in mind that one month later McGehee refused an assignment and triggered his release.

[atl_braves]

Originally Posted by NotMuchTime

This^ OOTP could care less if a player has a long storied history with just one team or MLB in general. OOTP could care less if it's Cal Ripken, David Ortiz, Derick Jeter, etc... Teams don't sign a guy (JJ Hardy comes to mind) to a 3 or 4 year extension and then send them to AAA. OOTP has no problem with it.

Yes, that's the issue. The names don't matter here, the contracts do. A player with that kind of contract can simply opt to stay on the 25-man roster, or make the organization trade/release him so he can pursue major league opportunities.

[atl_braves]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

All braves....have you gone through your league transaction log and checked what happened to players on waivers?

Yes. The players go to AAA every time - not back on the active roster (they may get promoted back at a later date, but the issue here is that they're being sent down at all) and not released. I have never seen a player with a Major League contract get released by the CPU teams.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by atl_braves

Fair enough, but a. I challenge you to find one other instance of this happening and b. keep in mind that one month later McGehee refused an assignment and triggered his release.

This is the second conversation I've had here in the past month that has gone like this:

someone: "X never happens"

me: "here's an example of X happening"

someone: "I challenge you to find more examples of X happening."

That could go on forever. Logically, one example is all I need to demonstrate that players sometimes do accept minor league assignments, and if you won't accept incontrovertible evidence of that, there's not much else I can do. If you want more examples, google, it took me two seconds to find McGehee.

[atl_braves]

Originally Posted by injury log

This is the second conversation I've had here in the past month that has gone like this:

someone: "X never happens"

me: "here's an example of X happening"

someone: "I challenge you to find more examples of X happening."

That could go on forever. Logically, one example is all I need to demonstrate that players sometimes do accept minor league assignments, and if you won't accept incontrovertible evidence of that, there's not much else I can do. If you want more examples, google, it took me two seconds to find McGehee.

For all intents and purposes, it never happens. It's not close. Do you think the number of players who accept the assignment is anywhere close to those who don't, or are you just trying to be pedantic?

[PSUColonel]

I was just looking quickly on the surface, and found some high priced players who've passed through waivers on the parent roster, and a some others in AAA.