Breaking ties

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by thehef

This is my manual workaround, that may be the same as yours:

Do you still then have to delete those games from the following years schedule? Any games you added used to get added to every sibsequent schedule as well.

[Orioles1966]

I thought that the schedule editor was disabled when you are playing games but then is available once you finish the day?

[bwburke94]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Do you still then have to delete those games from the following years schedule? Any games you added used to get added to every sibsequent schedule as well.

Yes, you have to re-import.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Padreman

Attachment 439635

Message unclear. Was that "I love 'My Little Pony'"?

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Do you still then have to delete those games from the following years schedule? Any games you added used to get added to every sibsequent schedule as well.

I used "as played" schedules so, nope. Interesting, though, as I guess you are suggesting that if you are using the same schedule over and over (that only varies because teams finish in different orders from year to year), any mods made to the schedule one year will be reflected in subsequent years unless manually removed. Did not know that.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by thehef

I used "as played" schedules so, nope. Interesting, though, as I guess you are suggesting that if you are using the same schedule over and over (that only varies because teams finish in different orders from year to year), any mods made to the schedule one year will be reflected in subsequent years unless manually removed. Did not know that.

That certainly used to be the case

[rjl518]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Message unclear. Was that "I love 'My Little Pony'"?

It sure looks like it Wolf.

[Padreman]

Originally Posted by rjl518

It sure looks like it Wolf.

Lol stop kissing up to him

[Le Grande Orange]

By the way, I'll point out something else in my proposed tie-breaking and (new) playoff customization systems: it should be possible to adapt them to both FHM and BTS. That means not only OOTP would benefit, but the other two flagship games of OOTP Developments as well.

Certainly, playoff customization is useful for hockey, given how much playoffs are a part of that sport. And non-game tie-breaking methods are a very important factor indeed in the NFL after it went to a three-division structure in 1970 and stopped using tie-breaking playoff games. (Yes, the NFL, and AFL, did use in years past tie-breaking playoff games when two clubs were tied for a division title.)

[rjl518]

Originally Posted by Padreman

Lol stop kissing up to him

You are just jelly!

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Yes, it should, of course. But again, the code is very complex, and whenever I tried to fix something, something else got broke.

Now, think about this: If I'd recode that part of the game entirely, for example implementing your system, would it be worth the minimum 2 months of work I 'd need for that, only to fix some rare problems and introduce a few new options which only 0.1% of customers would use? This is the question I have to ask myself, and right now the answer is no. This may change in the future, as maybe I'd get an idea to do it in less time, but right now it is what it is, I'm afraid.

2 months? I doubt that. How long did you say that it took you to code the historical exhibitions feature? And that, if I'm not mistaken, we could already do with a bit of work (I'm pretty sure I've seen dynasty reports and tournaments doing the same). Buy a case of some energy drinks or something and knock it out in 2 weeks. Then you've got another item to put on the major new features list for OOTP18.

As rare as it might be, proper tiebreakers are incredibly important. Imagine you play out an entire season of games, get tied for a playoff spot, and then the game effectively says, "oh, sorry, that's too much work for me to figure out. Next year win your division and then you won't have to worry about it". It's great that people like thehef post their fixes, but not every customer is going to think to look for a fix, nor should they be expected to.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by kq76

2 months? I doubt that. How long did you say that it took you to code the historical exhibitions feature? And that, if I'm not mistaken, we could already do with a bit of work (I'm pretty sure I've seen dynasty reports and tournaments doing the same). Buy a case of some energy drinks or something and knock it out in 2 weeks. Then you've got another item to put on the major new features list for OOTP18.

As rare as it might be, proper tiebreakers are incredibly important. Imagine you play out an entire season of games, get tied for a playoff spot, and then the game effectively says, "oh, sorry, that's too much work for me to figure out. Next year win your division and then you won't have to worry about it". It's great that people like thehef post their fixes, but not every customer is going to think to look for a fix, nor should they be expected to.

Just tiebreakers isn't 2 months, but LGO's full proposal is way more than that. It includes full customizations of playoffs, massive amount of potential matchups and options, and a slew of other things.

I imagine at some point we'll touch tiebreakers. The most likely time we'll get to fixing it is when I'm just casually playing my game in the summer, and then our built-in tiebreaker screws me out of a playoff matchup. If that happens then I'll definitely take the time to fix it up

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Padreman

Lol stop kissing up to him

Sorry, but I don't take advice from "My Little Pony" fans.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by kq76

As rare as it might be, proper tiebreakers are incredibly important. Imagine you play out an entire season of games, get tied for a playoff spot, and then the game effectively says, "oh, sorry, that's too much work for me to figure out. Next year win your division and then you won't have to worry about it". It's great that people like thehef post their fixes, but not every customer is going to think to look for a fix, nor should they be expected to.

Tie-breaking isn't just for determining which clubs make the playoffs, it's also used to determine the seeding order for playoff match-ups when clubs have the same regular season record. (There's a little oddity here in that MLB no longer counts tie-breaking playoff games as part of a club's record for playoff match-up seeding purposes.)

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Just tiebreakers isn't 2 months, but LGO's full proposal is way more than that. It includes full customizations of playoffs, massive amount of potential matchups and options, and a slew of other things.

Let me just point out you haven't see what exactly is in my proposal, other than the merest, tiniest, incomplete glimpse.

Again, think schedule files here, because that's the model I'm working from. The playoff match-ups and rounds (as well as the playoff schedule itself) would be set in an external file similar to the current regular season schedule files OOTP uses now. What OOTP would need to do is understand what the various tags mean, and then apply them as per the sequence laid out in the external file. I don't see how this is much more complicated than what the game does now with schedule files. What is being offloaded to the user is the creation of the particular playoff format via the external file, rather than Markus or Matt themselves having to code directly into OOTP any new playoff formats and scenarios, or them having to create complicated in-game screens and menus to handle the new playoff options.

This is, admittedly, a customization system suited for advanced users, rather like creating a regular season schedule file is now. The benefit is that such a system offers unparalleled flexibility. And, once some folks get familiar working with the system, people can create and trade customized playoff and tie-breaking files. OOTP would ship with playoff and tie-breaking external files for each real-world league, guaranteeing each real league it includes is fully accurate.

[bwburke94]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Non-game tie-breaking methods are a very important factor indeed in the NFL after it went to a three-division structure in 1970 and stopped using tie-breaking playoff games. (Yes, the NFL, and AFL, did use in years past tie-breaking playoff games when two clubs were tied for a division title.)

The NFL stopped using tiebreaker playoffs in 1967, not 1970.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

The NFL stopped using tiebreaker playoffs in 1967, not 1970.

Yes, I remembered that after posting. I just didn't feel like making an edit.

The AFL kept on using them through 1969.

[BKL]

As I suggested in a post about a year ago, and then again a few days ago, and also was suggested by someone else on this thread, I don't see why it's not just a simple solution of having the OPTION to "end season and proceed to playoffs" button. This would end the season as is, with no additional games being played. Once in playoff mode, you could then seed teams however you choose. This would allow 100% customization for everyone. If you want to keep the default game AI logic you could by not ever clicking the button; if you want to schedule your own tie-breaker games you could just edit the schedule to add tie breaker games at season end and then click the button "end season and proceed to playoffs"; if you don't want any tie breaker games but would rather use a statistic to determine tie breakers, again just delete any remaining scheduled games by the AI and click the button "proceed to playoffs." In all cases, once in playoff mode the game already allows you to edit seeding.

Not sure if I'm way off base here, but that seems like such a simple solution and would allow everyone to deal with ties as they see appropriate.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by BKL

As I suggested in a post about a year ago, and then again a few days ago, and also was suggested by someone else on this thread, I don't see why it's not just a simple solution of having the OPTION to "end season and proceed to playoffs" button. This would end the season as is, with no additional games being played. Once in playoff mode, you could then seed teams however you choose. This would allow 100% customization for everyone. If you want to keep the default game AI logic you could by not ever clicking the button; if you want to schedule your own tie-breaker games you could just edit the schedule to add tie breaker games at season end and then click the button "end season and proceed to playoffs"; if you don't want any tie breaker games but would rather use a statistic to determine tie breakers, again just delete any remaining scheduled games by the AI and click the button "proceed to playoffs." In all cases, once in playoff mode the game already allows you to edit seeding.

The systems I have in mind would effectively do this, but don't require the user to have to go through many of those steps manually. There'd be an external file which controls what should happen, meaning once that file is set up, the user need never touch it again, unless they wanted to make some changed to their procedures.

[geoffmatt17]

This imperfection just ruined the playoffs in an online league I play in. Two teams tied for the wild card spot and one team was awarded it without a tie breaker. I assume it was because that team won the season series 4-3, but needless to say we have a very angry GM who may not come back.

[Orioles1966]

Tie-breakers are more confusing for larger leagues. I could have 3 teams tied for third place(third place is the last automatic playoff spot for divisions with 9 or more teams) but what would happen if all three teams are tied with another team from another division for the last wild-card spot(team # 70 in the overall playoffs).