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Old 02-22-2016, 10:18 AM   #81
mindflux
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If it's by starting games... in my case...

I probably start both more historical and fictional but I probably spend most of my time playing modern-day.

I do a lot of starting games to work on my own setups just to see what it would look like, how I could make it work. Like, having some of the same teams play in different leagues in different seasons, or having a major leagues in south america along with mlb and they play in winter and have a championship of the Americas between seasons. Or setting up so instead of having a single championship at the end of one season,having a set up that's like individual sports where you have four majors. Or manual promotion and relegation but then I get bogged down before too long.

I start some with the 70s or 90s Reds and either play historical or try to take advantage of foresight in the draft to make them even better.

Most of my game actual playtime is on now or recent historical though, and by recent historical I mean, try to actually win a championship with the 2010-2013 Reds, or else rebuild like the Reds, but try to get more for Frazier and Chapman than they did and finish the rebuild. This way I can skip ahead seasons until we don't suck. Which I wish I could do (without aging) in real life.

Someone was asking about editing modern-day seasons, I always edit the playoffs. Typically what I do is ten teams like there are now, but I give the one seeds a double bye. I do a wild card best of five and a division series best of five then the LCS is best of seven and World Series best of nine. I like giving the best teams in each league the best shot of making it to the Series, but I also enjoy expanded playoffs because more fanbases have a reason to be excited that they at least have a shot. Often I'll also do expansion to 32 and go to balanced schedules with no interleague. This year I may make the LCS best of nine as well to give the better teams more games to shake off the rust factor.

Last edited by mindflux; 02-22-2016 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:20 PM   #82
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So if this 65/25/15 is games created it doesn't actually represent 65/25/15 percent of users play a particular type of game. It just means of 100 games created 65 are MLB.

So all that can really be garnered from it is that MLB is started significantly more than the alternatives. That to me would seem fairly obvious as that is surely the reason for buying the game in the first place (other than those who purely buy it to replay history). Fictional players (and I include myself in that) in my opinion come to the game to play MLB (or other included leagues) initially. From there, many see the countless possibilities to create their own universe, others try historical and others have no interest in doing anything but MLB and each and everyone of them is perfectly entitled to play and enjoy the game as they see fit, and none of them are more important than any other customer.

Any improvement to the game will improve all aspects of Fictional and indeed Historical as time goes on, after all game additions like the rule 5 draft etc can now be played at the appropriate time in what is now historical MLB.

I would imagine a lot of users play more than one type of game. I have played all three and will continue to do so.



Out of interest I wonder what % of the games are other leagues like the Japanese League? Is there a growing customer base in Japan? I would think Steam might have helped with that. It could be argued work on a historical Japanese League would bring in a lot of customers in that case

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Old 02-22-2016, 12:33 PM   #83
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I'm seeing a lot of attempted denial here.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Last edited by The Wolf; 02-22-2016 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:55 PM   #84
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Nobody is denying the figures. If you take the 65/25/15 as games created it actually suggests a lot more than 65% of customers play MLB as some of the fictional and historical are of course going to be MLB players as well. What those figures don't mean is that 65% of customers solely play MLB.


Of course it makes sense for Markus and his team to ensure the MLB is as good and robust as it can be and to devote more time working on it as more people play that than any other way, that's obvious.

It also stands to reason any improvement in the MLB side of things is going to improve all aspects of the game (barring something MLB specific, such as accurate MLB rosters of course, although even that can be argued for later historical play)


So, end result, we can all be happy. Most of us because this already excellent game will continue to improve, you because you now know you are a more important gamer than the "minority players"
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Old 02-22-2016, 01:19 PM   #85
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I'm seeing a lot of attempted denial here. And it's sad
No, not really.

Although I don't send in my data (silly privacy issues ,) but if I did, it would show that a fairly high percentage of the games I start are modern.

Every time I buy the game, the first game I start is modern. Not because I want to play a modern game (I always play fictional,) but because I like to have a look around at the real baseball world.

I'm not even a baseball fan, and I have an interest in looking at the real life teams and players. I would imagine that a lot of the fictional and historical players who are genuine baseball fans are very interested in starting a modern game, just to see how the game rates their favourite teams and players.

Personally, what I think is kind of sad, is seeing people lobbying for the game to focus on their own favourite mode of play. It's quite obvious that one of the things that makes this a great game is the freedom it affords the user to play the game their own way. Choosing to focus on any one mode over the others would be a huge backward step for this series.
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Old 02-22-2016, 01:55 PM   #86
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That's LOL funny, give how hard the fictional players here have lobbied for relegation/promotion and women in baseball.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 02-22-2016, 02:07 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
That's LOL funny, give how hard the fictional players here have lobbied for relegation/promotion and women in baseball.
Perhaps there's a difference between lobbying for a particular feature to be added, no matter how absurd, and lobbying for the developers to focus in particular on your favourite mode of play.
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Old 02-22-2016, 02:14 PM   #88
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I found the MLB game included with OOTP to be a victim of the uncanny valley, where it was so close to perfect that the flaws I did find stood out terribly and shattered my immersion.
Agree to large extent, which is why my own preferred set-up is less "outright fictional" than "alternative MLB universe," where I play exactly with real-life MLB teams / leagues +MiLB affiliates, all the league rules etc., the only difference is: completely fictional players and personnel.

To be honest, I'm not sure what there really is to argue about here. Can any preferred play style really claim to feel 'slighted' at the expense of another? OOTP is so feature-rich it's almost absurd. I kind of marvel that new features keep getting added because -- man, what's missing at this point? What *can't* you do? Promotion / Relegation, OK (do any professional baseball leagues do this? genuinely curious - I don't know). OOTP gets so much right and includes so much that the things it doesn't do well or doesn't include should be weighed in proper perspective, which is to say, they're on the minor / less significant scale of things.

Anyway, as the Big Lebowski said, that's just, like, my opinion, man...
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Old 02-22-2016, 02:29 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by sandman2575 View Post

To be honest, I'm not sure what there really is to argue about here. Can any preferred play style really claim to feel 'slighted' at the expense of another? OOTP is so feature-rich it's almost absurd. I kind of marvel that new features keep getting added because -- man, what's missing at this point? What *can't* you do? Promotion / Relegation, OK (do any professional baseball leagues do this? genuinely curious - I don't know). OOTP gets so much right and includes so much that the things it doesn't do well or doesn't include should be weighed in proper perspective, which is to say, they're on the minor / less significant scale of things.

Anyway, as the Big Lebowski said, that's just, like, my opinion, man...
I would fully agree. As a fictional player, I think the game is close to perfect. Certainly the best on the market by a long way. The one thing that I would really like to see is international baseball, and I'm sure it will come soon enough.

Promotion/Relegation could be interesting, but only if it was properly implemented, and I don't think that would be easy. I don't see how it could easily fit into a major league/minor league setup. If it was simply bolted on to the game as it is, I think it would end up being more messy than anything.

What the game is really calling out for though, is a proper Hungarian nameset
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Old 02-22-2016, 02:40 PM   #90
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Being someone who only plays historical this really shocks me lol
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Old 02-22-2016, 05:57 PM   #91
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But it's a matter of finding a fine line to keep your hardcore fictional and historical guys happy too.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Yup. And I feel we're doing a pretty good job here
I belong into that category, and yes, Markus, you guys are doing a decent job ...

Okay, a great job
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Old 02-22-2016, 05:59 PM   #92
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Fictional leagues benefit from the improvements that MLB leagues get in terms of gameplay realism, AI, player personality, financials, and all the rest. The attempts in this thread to pit one against the other are silly. As a fictional player I'm looking forward to seeing what bleeds over in OOTP 17.
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Old 02-22-2016, 07:05 PM   #93
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Fictional play is a badly outnumbered minority
Incorrect.
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Old 02-22-2016, 07:05 PM   #94
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I'm seeing a lot of attempted denial here.
This entire debate about the number of players that prefer MLB over the number of players that prefer fictional has some seriously incorrect assumptions about actual spread. The 65/25/10 spread that Markus listed is flawed data pure and simple. You can't extrapolate the number of players that prefer MLB over the number of players that prefer Fictional by the number of times a league is started.

Using the data that Markus listed earlier in this thread and using it to support an argument about the actual percentage of the number of players that prefer MLB versus the number of players that prefer Fictional is just as flawed as the data itself.

I start a new MLB every version but I don't play it. I use it as an almanac or to see if I like the new UI or to test new features. Also, think about the tons of times people fire up a test MLB universe to run sims to test settings. Lastly, his data doesn't include transferred leagues. When we fictional players settle down on a keeper-league we import it into the new version year after year. We don't start new fictional leagues every version. Once we have a keeper many of us never start another league again. Except for MLB leagues in order to test new features. On the other hand, most MLB players start a new league each version.

I know you are going to pound this incorrect argument down our throats over the upcoming months each time the debate comes up. I understand that you will be unlikely to concede even the smallest point. With that said, I have made my stance perfectly clear: I disagree that the data has as much value as you are making it out to sound and I am equally as unlikely to concede even the smallest point.

I'll let it go.
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Old 02-22-2016, 08:14 PM   #95
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Damn. You had my hopes flying there. Oh well, the data available on the Atlantic League has got to be extremely good because it is such a recent league.
Not necessarily. As I just pointed out in another thread, there are occasional discrepancies between sources in something as basic as the final regular season won-loss record of a club. Whether such errors are the result of typos or flawed data is not always easy to determine.
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Old 02-22-2016, 08:17 PM   #96
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I'm seeing a lot of attempted denial here.
And you never addressed how one-third of users prefer something else. Should that one-third be told to take their dollars somewhere else? What would a possible one-third reduction in the number of users mean?
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Old 02-22-2016, 10:12 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Honorable_Pawn View Post
Incorrect.
That's just denial. You're outnumbered 2 1/2 to 1 by modern users.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

Five thousand thanks for a non-modder? I never thought I'd see the day. Thank you for your support.
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Old 02-22-2016, 10:15 PM   #98
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And you never addressed how one-third of users prefer something else. Should that one-third be told to take their dollars somewhere else? What would a possible one-third reduction in the number of users mean?
That one quarter of fictional players needs to stop acting like an entitled majority and face up to a future as a known small minority - something which it is using every possible tactic of denial to try to avoid facing up to.

Fictional: you guys are ONE PLAYER IN FOUR. Deal with it.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

Five thousand thanks for a non-modder? I never thought I'd see the day. Thank you for your support.
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Old 02-22-2016, 11:01 PM   #99
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That one quarter of fictional players needs to stop acting like an entitled majority and face up to a future as a known small minority - something which it is using every possible tactic of denial to try to avoid facing up to.

Fictional: you guys are ONE PLAYER IN FOUR. Deal with it.




You are one funny dude. I missed ya.
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Old 02-22-2016, 11:51 PM   #100
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I'm curious, why would you imagine that number was quite high? Maybe for core users here but I would think the average Joe that isn't active here(and Markus has stated the average OOTP buyer is not active here: see quote below) just plays the current MLB "as is".
Guess the only way to find out for sure is to have the tracker track it. Otherwise it's just all of us speculating
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