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Old 02-21-2016, 07:16 PM   #61
kevrock
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What percentage plays Online, is that information available?
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Old 02-21-2016, 07:30 PM   #62
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Why doesn't OOTP focus on online legaue needs ?

I am really frustrated why OOTP does not recognize on line league players
needs in new releases each year. We online league Commish's continue to struggle with corrupt files (Jim Unknowns issues), issues with Stats Lab and OOTPOU, rookie draft issues, 7 day lineup issues, uploads/downloads,as well as providing a means to run head to head play!
It just seems that reported bugs and fix requests for on line leagues is not a focus of their concern.

I am very disappointed in this release of OOTP17.
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Old 02-21-2016, 07:52 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
That being said, I also have a strong interest in the Atlantic league and I'm hoping historical schedules/rosters make it into the game at some point
To put some numbers to that:

League-seasons, major league: 270
(from 1871-2015; includes the National Association and the 'third' major leagues; counts the AL and NL separately)

League-seasons, minor league: 3,161
(from 1877-2015; includes affiliated and independent leagues based in the U.S. and Canada; includes leagues which opened but later disbanded during the season; excludes leagues based in other countries, e.g. Mexican League, Dominican Summer League, etc.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
I'm not arguing "merit." I'm pointing out common business sense. If I'm selling something and I know that two-thirds of my customers prefer X, then X is what I'm going to make/stock/sell/improve the most. That's just simple business logic.
My point still stands. Nearly one-third of OOTP's users do something other than the MLB league included with the game. Should that one-third be dispensed with entirely in favour of the two-thirds that are?
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Old 02-21-2016, 08:03 PM   #64
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In answer to the MLB league becoming fictional, I stop playing when the league becomes primarily fake players.

Also it seems like the discussion is an either or. If you ask everyone's favorite that's one thing, but how many of this 65% MLB are also playing historical (like me)
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Old 02-21-2016, 08:06 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave1927p View Post
At the same time, how many people tweak the rules of modern mlb? I imagine that number is quite high. So I would expect there's multiple ways to dissect those figures.
I'm curious, why would you imagine that number was quite high? Maybe for core users here but I would think the average Joe that isn't active here(and Markus has stated the average OOTP buyer is not active here: see quote below) just plays the current MLB "as is".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user is not active in this forum I suppose. He downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
A new user is more likely to not know what can be modified than what can be. Hell, its not unusual to read posts here from guys that have played for years saying "I didn't know I could do that".


Having said that even if a lot of players tweak the rules, that 65% are still using the MLB setup leagues and players and that will always continue to be the dominant factor that draws in users despite the impression one might get from visiting these forums and reading all of the "women's league" and "relegation" etc request posts. Well at least before Markus posted the data we are now discussing.
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Old 02-21-2016, 08:22 PM   #66
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I found the MLB game included with OOTP to be a victim of the uncanny valley, where it was so close to perfect that the flaws I did find stood out terribly and shattered my immersion. Things like missing award winners, incomplete histories, over-complete histories; I just couldn't bear it. I imagine it's gotten better over the past few versions, but I've moved on to playing fictional with little motivation to try MLB again.

And the fictional experience included with OOTP is so good, I struggle to think of ways I'd improve upon it.
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Old 02-21-2016, 08:28 PM   #67
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For me, real leagues would always annoy me from any of my preconceived notions. I'd see something "wrong" and it just ruins the immersion.

That is where fictional or alternate historical come in. I use smaller fictional leagues with locations I care about and normally sim out to get some history in place (plus I hate dealing with the inaugural draft), no preconceptions to get past. If I'm running alternate history, I'm using Gambo's DB, I've come up with a point of divergence and some sort of reason for it (typically the creation of a fictional league competing in the same universe, Continental League, something forming during the 1994-95 lockout), or if I'm doing MLB, I'll actually import and sim from 1901 (at least) to the year I'm doing so I have everything in the Gambo/OOTP context.
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Old 02-21-2016, 09:01 PM   #68
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I have no problem with modern MLB getting some love. Glad historical is for the 1st time in a few versions.
I will play many leagues in 17.
Continue my main league EBL vs MLB.
Continue my new fictional 2000 White Sox.
Continue, at some point my ABF, stuck in 1948.
Start a new fictional historical MLB with accurate teams starting in 1871.
Play out the 2016 MLB quickstart in some fashion either as the White Sox with real rosters or draft my favorite players. I tend to give up on these leagues when teh Sox start to suck.
So with every version i play just about every way you can.
Might even get back into online play.
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Old 02-21-2016, 09:01 PM   #69
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I use to play fictional up until I lost my save file for the league when I switched to a new pc. I have been going back to MLB because the thought of setting up a new league seems too time consuming at this point in my life. I really did get into my fictional league but after losing 2 seasons worth of 5 seasons it is hard to want to go back again.

I imagine there are others who are similar to me in that the time factor to get your league the way you want it is too great, when time is in short supply.
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Old 02-21-2016, 10:40 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange View Post
To put some numbers to that:

League-seasons, major league: 270
(from 1871-2015; includes the National Association and the 'third' major leagues; counts the AL and NL separately)

League-seasons, minor league: 3,161
(from 1877-2015; includes affiliated and independent leagues based in the U.S. and Canada; includes leagues which opened but later disbanded during the season; excludes leagues based in other countries, e.g. Mexican League, Dominican Summer League, etc.)
Oh man. For some reason I thought the historical data being added only covered affiliated minors. I am very psyched at the idea of managing the LI Ducks from their inception in 2000. Thanks for the info!
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Old 02-21-2016, 11:25 PM   #71
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I know it may sound silly, but one of the reasons I play fictional over the MLB quickstart, is Questdog's name files (which simply don't get along with the quickstart).

They are THAT good. They really help my leagues come alive, and are much more realistic than the default name database. Not to mention the thousands of added names.
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Old 02-21-2016, 11:34 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweed View Post
I'm curious, why would you imagine that number was quite high? Maybe for core users here but I would think the average Joe that isn't active here(and Markus has stated the average OOTP buyer is not active here: see quote below) just plays the current MLB "as is".
That's true for most games, I think. Only a relatively small percentage of a game's users ever go online to the game's forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweed View Post
Having said that even if a lot of players tweak the rules, that 65% are still using the MLB setup leagues and players and that will always continue to be the dominant factor that draws in users despite the impression one might get from visiting these forums and reading all of the "women's league" and "relegation" etc request posts.
I'll say it again: one-third of the users do other things than the MLB default league. One out of three. That's a sizable proportion of users.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Oh man. For some reason I thought the historical data being added only covered affiliated minors.
It does only include affiliated leagues (and only then when the number of affiliated teams in the league is a majority). You'll only get the independent leagues for the included 2016 league season (part of the default MLB league).

I was just posting the league-seasons numbers as an illustration of just how many schedules would need to be found and turned into OOTP schedule files (as well as an indicator of just how much history there is to the minors). Fully historical minor leagues require a ton more work.
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Old 02-21-2016, 11:36 PM   #73
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I find it fascinating that folks can run so many disparate leagues starting and stopping. I have the same fictional league going since v3. In my OOTP life I have started 1 league and 1 league only. My league is almost as real to me as the mlb.
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Old 02-21-2016, 11:49 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by pizzaddict View Post
So what happens after 7 or 8 seasons when those players you recognize are gone? At that point you are basically running a fictional league. Do you scrap your league and start over every handful of seasons?
Actually yes...I usually start over with a new team or a new version of OOTPif is released.

Even though I have 4 versions of OOTP on my desktop I have never moved a league outside the version it was created.
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Old 02-21-2016, 11:50 PM   #75
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Having said that even if a lot of players tweak the rules, that 65% are still using the MLB setup leagues and players and that will always continue to be the dominant factor that draws in users despite the impression one might get from visiting these forums and reading all of the "women's league" and "relegation" etc request posts. Well at least before Markus posted the data we are now discussing.
Exactly. And now we see why women's leagues and promotion/relegation and leagues in Botswana or wherever it was are non-starters. 65% of OOTP players play modern MLB, 10% play historical MLB, and only 25% play fictional/women's/Botswana/etc. - just one out of four, while the MLB players are two out of three.

The tail was been wagging the dog. But with this data I do believe that the dog is going to take control, because it doesn't make financial sense to do otherwise.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 02-22-2016, 12:07 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange View Post

It does only include affiliated leagues (and only then when the number of affiliated teams in the league is a majority). You'll only get the independent leagues for the included 2016 league season (part of the default MLB league).

I was just posting the league-seasons numbers as an illustration of just how many schedules would need to be found and turned into OOTP schedule files (as well as an indicator of just how much history there is to the minors). Fully historical minor leagues require a ton more work.
Damn. You had my hopes flying there. Oh well, the data available on the Atlantic League has got to be extremely good because it is such a recent league. So I'm gonna remain optimistic that it some day gets added in. On the other hand, the number of OOTPers potentially interested in historical play for that league is probably miniscule... so it may be a while...
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:16 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by actionjackson View Post
Just a suggestion, but have you thought of trying a random debut historical league? With approximately 18,500 players in the standard database, you could go many years without running out of players if you play it right.
I guess I'm just not that in to historical rosters. It bugs me to even play with rosters that are a year old. I just prefer current, up to date rosters. As I said, I eventually focus on minor leagues until the fictional players cause me to lose interest.

Someone suggested six or seven seasons before teams are predominantly fictional and that is about right. By the time I get through about three leagues, it's time for the next version of OOTP to come out.
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:36 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan View Post
What if your league evolved to something that isn't MLB anymore?
At that point, for me, everything is okay. I've been following the league since the game started. I see new players coming in, new stars being groomed, and I still have the history of the MLB, the players and all the teams present.

Just makes a big difference for me.
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Old 02-22-2016, 01:20 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange View Post
That's true for most games, I think. Only a relatively small percentage of a game's users ever go online to the game's forum

I'll say it again: one-third of the users do other things than the MLB default league. One out of three. That's a sizable proportion of users.
My post was in response to this from dave1927
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave1927p View Post
At the same time, how many people tweak the rules of modern mlb? I imagine that number is quite high. So I would expect there's multiple ways to dissect those figures.
and trying to understand what point he was trying to make about players changing rules. It has nothing to do with how many go online to this forum other than to say those that do are more likely to play fictional games (if we believe the post Habfan linked) and those that don't are more likely to "manages his favorite team and that's it" to quote Markus. So is he basing his theory that a "quite high" number of players tweak rules on what he reads here? If not than what does he base it on?

Seems he's saying that by tweaking the rules of modern day MLB it somehow makes the game less "real world" and makes it some kind of partial fictional league? I really didn't understand the point of the post at all so asked the question what makes him think a "quite high" number of users change the rules when using MLB setups? And even if they do, again what is the point? Still doesn't affect the 65% number Markus posted as those players are still in the "real world" user pool.

MLB is still the dominant driving force that sells the game and I'll stand by that statement. But if you only read these forums you might come away with a different point of view. Look at the post Habfan linked and it shows ~55% playing fictional and as Markus told us that's not true when it comes to all users. That's a hell of a difference!

There have been many over the years that have threatened to never buy the game again if their feature didn't make it into OOTP. No women? Then I'll take my money and go home! No relegation? I'm being ignored I'm never buying again! etc. etc.

Nowhere have I said 1/4 of users, fictional players, should be ignored. Nowhere have I said 1/3 of users, historical and fictional players, should be ignored. And thankfully with Markus at the helm they are not being left out. But can we please quit playing the "fictional players are being ignored even though they are in the majority of users" game? When it's simply not true.

I'm certainly not, and I don't think anyone else is, saying fictional\historical play should be ignored. But just maybe we can have a little more understanding about why Markus makes the decisions he does about what is high on the to do list and what is not.

Now IF Markus was forced to make an either or decision, MLB or fictional, than I think it's obvious what that choice would be. 1/3 may be a sizable number but 2/3 dwarfs it and there would only be an MLB game. Lets be glad that's not the case and we can all have the game we want within the limitations of coding time, and how many users might use any feature that is added.
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Old 02-22-2016, 01:42 AM   #80
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MLB is still the dominant driving force that sells the game and I'll stand by that statement. But if you only read these forums you might come away with a different point of view. Look at the post Habfan linked and it shows ~55% playing fictional and as Markus told us that's not true when it comes to all users. That's a hell of a difference!

There have been many over the years that have threatened to never buy the game again if their feature didn't make it into OOTP. No women? Then I'll take my money and go home! No relegation? I'm being ignored I'm never buying again! etc. etc.

Nowhere have I said 1/4 of users, fictional players, should be ignored. Nowhere have I said 1/3 of users, historical and fictional players, should be ignored. And thankfully with Markus at the helm they are not being left out. But can we please quit playing the "fictional players are being ignored even though they are in the majority of users" game? When it's simply not true.

I'm certainly not, and I don't think anyone else is, saying fictional\historical play should be ignored. But just maybe we can have a little more understanding about why Markus makes the decisions he does about what is high on the to do list and what is not.

Now IF Markus was forced to make an either or decision, MLB or fictional, than I think it's obvious what that choice would be. 1/3 may be a sizable number but 2/3 dwarfs it and there would only be an MLB game. Lets be glad that's not the case and we can all have the game we want within the limitations of coding time, and how many users might use any feature that is added.
Amen. Fictional play is a badly outnumbered minority, and not a majority.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

Five thousand thanks for a non-modder? I never thought I'd see the day. Thank you for your support.
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