New Leagues? - Page 2

andrewv500 · 03-06-2016, 06:54 PM

Perhaps the concern should be less about 100% accuracy, or something close to that, and focus on approximation. As many have stated there is information available to add this to the game, historical as currently constituted is no where near accurate with regards to teams and leagues anyways, and the value added would be tremendous.

Of course as with all things it could easily be an option, one that the user turns on in order to be used as opposed to something one has to know to turn off to avoid.

Personally I feel this is an important aspect to add to the game

The Wolf · 03-06-2016, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Despite what some people will tell you, there is enough data to accurately recreate the Negro Leagues.

No, there's not. There are just too many things missing. You'll make up something you will call the Negro Leagues, but it won't be.

The Wolf · 03-06-2016, 09:52 PM

An example, from Rob Neyer, who worked on the problem: "There's a lot of gray areas here. Basically, it was only the black newspapers that even covered the Negro Leagues games, and some survived on microfilm, some have been lost, some of them published once a week so they didn't cover every game, some of them didn't run box scores or they did run box scores but they were incomplete. A great example: Josh Gibson, according to the data that we got, in two of his seasons, two of his full seasons in the Negro Leagues, he drew zero walks. Well, we know that's not true. We know he drew a number of walks. He was a great hitter and feared. We just don't know how many walks he drew."

Now you can make up numbers, but at that point you have a fictional league.

Spritze · 03-06-2016, 10:59 PM

Mr. Neyers comment is simply out of date. The earth is no longer flat either. "I have seen the edge!"

New research occurs daily. Things change. What once was a given is now called into question.

The future can be glorious!

Padreman · 03-06-2016, 11:05 PM

If there's already a negro league database is there way I can install it to already existing fictional league?

The Wolf · 03-06-2016, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Mr. Neyers comment is simply out of date. The earth is no longer flat either. "I have seen the edge!"

New research occurs daily. Things change. What once was a given is now called into question.

The future can be glorious!

I flat out don't believe you. The necessary data was never recorded. You can't change that.

Hammercraft · 03-06-2016, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

i'm sure you probably know about The Negro Leagues Book - edited by Dick Clark & Larry Lester. It has rosters of the Negro Leagues from the 1880's until 1955. Pretty spendy last time i saw it an Amazon though

The paperback version is much cheaper, the used paperback is super cheap

Bigrod · 03-07-2016, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

I need to get with BigRod on this but I think

There is enough 1890 through mid-1930's data so I am planning on at least a mod, maybe this summer. Right now it looks to be about 10,000 negro league players. OOTP would like to include the negro leagues I am sure. A few hurdles to clear.

Currently grabbing and sorting the data...

joefromchicago · 03-07-2016, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Why not? Plus you have about 20 more years of data for Mr. Gibson. Taken as a whole I'd suspect his skill set would be accurately reflected unlike a vampire in a mirror.

You want to eliminate guesswork, but simply averaging all the other guesses doesn't yield certainty, it just yields another guess. And without reliable data, that's what you'll get. After all, Barry Bonds and I together have hit 762 major-league home runs. That doesn't mean that we have hit 381 each.

Spritze · 03-07-2016, 04:32 AM

We do not average "guesses". That wood bee stewpid.

sprague · 03-07-2016, 04:55 AM

Why not think of it as a feature some may use, some may not.

I for one would encourage their work on this project and see what it looks like when it is done..

joefromchicago · 03-07-2016, 04:55 AM

The Negro League stats that we have now are little better than guesses. Educated guesses, no doubt, but guesses nonetheless. And guesses plus guesses divided by the total number of guesses equals another guess.

thehef · 03-07-2016, 05:08 AM

I'm not sure what the complaint is here. If some are unhappy that there isn't 100% complete and verifiable negro league data to use in order to come up with stats for import into OOTP, it seems that unhappiness should be directed somewhere other than towards those who are making major efforts towards being able to bring negro leaguers into OOTP...

If the inclusion of thousands of negro leaguers into OOTP isn't your cup o' tea because the source data isn't 100% pure - or for whatever other reason - I'm reasonably sure that nobody will force you to use them in your game.

mitchkenn · 03-07-2016, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehef

I'm not sure what the complaint is here. If some are unhappy that there isn't 100% complete and verifiable negro league data to use in order to come up with stats for import into OOTP, it seems that unhappiness should be directed somewhere other than towards those who are making major efforts towards being able to bring negro leaguers into OOTP...

If the inclusion of thousands of negro leaguers into OOTP isn't your cup o' tea because the source data isn't 100% pure - or for whatever other reason - I'm reasonably sure that nobody will force you to use them in your game.

put very well. After all, this is a game and as far as i can tell, none of it is 100% re-enactment of life as it happened, or is going to happen. i understand some people's position that the Negro League data base will not ever been perfectly complete, but that doesn't change the fact that what can be gleaned and re-discovered and put into a data base for those who would want to use it should be encouraged. i for one would like to see it and use it.

The Wolf · 03-07-2016, 10:49 AM

Not complete? It's a total shambles. I personally find claiming something to be historical that can never be anything but a flight of fantasy offensive.

swampdragon · 03-07-2016, 11:30 AM

Call them educated guesses. The farther down the minor league ladder and the farther back you go, the more guessing is involved. The Negro Leagues are no different. With that understanding, and having faith in Spritze and Bigrod to make the best guesses they can from the information they can find, I'd rather have them available in the game than not. I'd rather have the earliest independent American Association, International League, and PCL available, but I'm excited enough about the concept of historical minors to cheerfully take what they give me while continuing to pester for more.

The Wolf · 03-07-2016, 12:05 PM

"Hmm. No walk or K data on Josh Gibson. Let's just give him Barry Bonds' percentages, that's the ticket!"

Not buying it.

The Wolf · 03-07-2016, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehef

If the inclusion of thousands of negro leaguers into OOTP isn't your cup o' tea because the source data isn't 100% pure - or for whatever other reason - I'm reasonably sure that nobody will force you to use them in your game.

It's more like 10% pure and 90% made up.

mitchkenn · 03-07-2016, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

"Hmm. No walk or K data on Josh Gibson. Let's just give him Barry Bonds' percentages, that's the ticket!"

Not buying it.

you're partially right. There is no K data, but there is walk data.

Josh Gibson - Seamheads.com Negro Leagues Database Powered by The Baseball Gauge
Josh Gibson Register Statistics & History | Baseball-Reference.com

maybe it's not enough for everyone. But in the universe i play the game, it's OK because even with mostly "real" players and stats, it's still a fictional experience. i fully understand your position on this. it just may not apply to the way other people might play their games. It is after all, a game. Have a good day and i DO understand/appreciate your position. it's just not mine.

thehef · 03-07-2016, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Not complete? It's a total shambles. I personally find claiming something to be historical that can never be anything but a flight of fantasy offensive.

Offensive? Really? Offensive? Not merely something with which you respectfully, or even vehemently, disagree? But offensive?

You must really be fun at parties.

03-06-2016, 10:59 PM	#24
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	Mr. Neyers comment is simply out of date. The earth is no longer flat either. "I have seen the edge!" New research occurs daily. Things change. What once was a given is now called into question. The future can be glorious! __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-06-2016, 11:05 PM	#25
Padreman Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2013 Location: Tijuana, Baja California, Mexico (formally San Diego, CA.) Posts: 4,140 Blog Entries: 1	If there's already a negro league database is there way I can install it to already existing fictional league? __________________ Chargers= Despicable Traitors

03-07-2016, 04:32 AM	#30
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	We do not average "guesses". That wood bee stewpid. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-07-2016, 04:55 AM	#32
joefromchicago Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 3,630	The Negro League stats that we have now are little better than guesses. Educated guesses, no doubt, but guesses nonetheless. And guesses plus guesses divided by the total number of guesses equals another guess. __________________ American-Ethnic (and Canadian) Namesets Historical Minor League Schedules 1870s City/Team Nickname Randomizers "It's Usually Sunny in Philadelphia" weather mod

03-07-2016, 11:30 AM	#36
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,509	Call them educated guesses. The farther down the minor league ladder and the farther back you go, the more guessing is involved. The Negro Leagues are no different. With that understanding, and having faith in Spritze and Bigrod to make the best guesses they can from the information they can find, I'd rather have them available in the game than not. I'd rather have the earliest independent American Association, International League, and PCL available, but I'm excited enough about the concept of historical minors to cheerfully take what they give me while continuing to pester for more. __________________ “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies." -- C.S. Lewis

03-06-2016, 06:54 PM	#21
andrewv500 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 33	Perhaps the concern should be less about 100% accuracy, or something close to that, and focus on approximation. As many have stated there is information available to add this to the game, historical as currently constituted is no where near accurate with regards to teams and leagues anyways, and the value added would be tremendous. Of course as with all things it could easily be an option, one that the user turns on in order to be used as opposed to something one has to know to turn off to avoid. Personally I feel this is an important aspect to add to the game

03-07-2016, 04:55 AM	#31
sprague All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,921	Why not think of it as a feature some may use, some may not. I for one would encourage their work on this project and see what it looks like when it is done..

03-07-2016, 05:08 AM	#33
thehef Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,858	I'm not sure what the complaint is here. If some are unhappy that there isn't 100% complete and verifiable negro league data to use in order to come up with stats for import into OOTP, it seems that unhappiness should be directed somewhere other than towards those who are making major efforts towards being able to bring negro leaguers into OOTP... If the inclusion of thousands of negro leaguers into OOTP isn't your cup o' tea because the source data isn't 100% pure - or for whatever other reason - I'm reasonably sure that nobody will force you to use them in your game.