3-D Graphics

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by BigCity

Why is graphics any different than any other option in the game?

Because of two things:

1. It totally changes the nature of OOTP from text sports sim to video game. And, like it or not, graphics quality is a major way that video games are judged. Think the consequences through.

2. The amount of effort and committment of resources involved. Markus has said that he will hire this work out so that he can keep working on the actual game, but it's never quite that simple. The game itself will inevitably be less than it could be from then on as Markus and Andreas spend time dealing with the graphics interface.

Markus has made it clear that graphics are coming in some form and they will be optional. We'll just have to wait to see what he chooses to do.

[hallissyc]

My issue is if the system requirements drastically change. The allure of OOTP right now is the fact that I can run it on my older MAC.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by hallissyc

My issue is if the system requirements drastically change. The allure of OOTP right now is the fact that I can run it on my older MAC.

Games have to change as technology changes. Are you going to hold on to that Mac forever? I too have a 2008 MacBook Pro, but realize the new ones have much better graphics capabilities, and am already trying to figure out when the best time to upgrade might be.

[sprague]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Games have to change as technology changes. Are you going to hold on to that Mac forever? I too have a 2008 MacBook Pro, but realize the new ones have much better graphics capabilities, and am already trying to figure out when the best time to upgrade might be.

sortta have to agree with PSU here,
at first once you have a great working game in the key areas of realism
the next area of realism is of course "seeing" the action, rather than just
a ball moving on the screen
the technology is so good right now that it is almost a manditory thing

i find it funny that so many equate 3d graphics with being a "remote controlled arcade game" I guess because that is how it has been used to date. But there is no reason it all to have the game exactly as it is, except seen a ball move on the screen to short stop and then a sentence under saying ball hit to the shortstop batter is out, to have a visual of the ball being hit to ozzie smith, and him throwing the ball to firstbase.

i sim out most games because i dont really have a feel of the gameplay as it is, which is fine. i am happy with the realism when i look at the boxscore. but with 3-d graphics i would play out many more games.
I look at what things like the MLB video games have and think wow, i can almost be fooled for a few seconds thinking i am looking at a real telecast. it is so enticing to be honest that if i knew for sure i could never pick up the stupid controller and could just watch the games like a fan, or at least only manage player changes and steals ect, i might switch. the view is so good. and every year it is going to get better and better

one of these text-sim games out there will make the switch soon, they are going to have to. the first one will probably get the main bussiness from it. the one that goes first gets to be the one that goes first

just saying...

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by sprague

i find it funny that so many equate 3d graphics with being a "remote controlled arcade game" I guess because that is how it has been used to date.

I don't think that's the only issue people have (see The Wolf's point #1 above about how it might change how the game is judged, even if I don't really agree with it).

I don't really buy that graphics would change how the game is judged, in the same way that they didn't for FM. Do people compare FM to FIFA? Not really, so why should people start comparing OOTP to MLB: The Show just because it uses some form of graphics.

[Honorable_Pawn]

Every year this is a hot thread.

Love the point-counterpoint discussion.

[BigCity]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Because of two things:

1. It totally changes the nature of OOTP from text sports sim to video game. And, like it or not, graphics quality is a major way that video games are judged. Think the consequences through.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Adding an animation to the field portion of the game isn't going to redefine anything - especially if it's on an on-off switch. I don't imagine for a second the game start-up is going to be a panoramic flying camera shot of Yankee stadium, nor do I think team owners are going to be animated discussing trades in the team offices. All we're talking about is an animation of the ball moving on the field and maybe a player chasing it for those that wish to see such a thing; and for that matter those that even watch games being played out.

2. The amount of effort and committment of resources involved. Markus has said that he will hire this work out so that he can keep working on the actual game, but it's never quite that simple. The game itself will inevitably be less than it could be from then on as Markus and Andreas spend time dealing with the graphics interface.

Your position is based on the fact that Markus and Co. has to account for every minute spent in development and that even coffee breaks must be documented as well. If the design group spends a total of 5,000 hours on development each year on average, I don't have a problem if 10% of that time is used to watch over the development of ANY outside development, whether it be graphics or otherwise. Why? Because this is Markus company and he alone is responsible for how he and his team spend their time. I would never consider claiming my opinion on how he does that is any of my business.

Markus has made it clear that graphics are coming in some form and they will be optional. We'll just have to wait to see what he chooses to do.

True, and I completely agree. Once he adds a graphics option - in whatever form it takes - THEN each of us will express what we think of it. At the same time, sales of the game will either go up, stay the same, or go down - and in the end THAT is the ONLY fact that will define whether graphics was a good idea or not.

[Cryomaniac]

I've said before (maybe in this thread, I CBA to look) that my idea for an initial graphics system is to animate the current PbP outcomes with coloured dots for players and a smaller white dot for the ball. It might take some work to create the animations, and it might mean some changes to how the stadium images work, but it would be a start.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by BigCity

Once he adds a graphics option - in whatever form it takes - THEN each of us will express what we think of it. At the same time, sales of the game will either go up, stay the same, or go down - and in the end THAT is the ONLY fact that will define whether graphics was a good idea or not.

That's just not true. If the game stops making the same progress in new features that it had been making historically once graphics become a reality then we will know that graphics have taken a toll on the development of the actual game itself and that graphics were indeed the bad idea that many of us are already certain that they are.

Remember, there really are those of us who want OOTP to be the world's greatest baseball simulation, and not a video game.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Remember, there really are those of us who want OOTP to be the world's greatest baseball simulation, and not a video game.

And there are those who wouldn't mind it being both.

[tomwolf2008]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

I don't think that's the only issue people have (see The Wolf's point #1 above about how it might change how the game is judged, even if I don't really agree with it).

I don't really buy that graphics would change how the game is judged, in the same way that they didn't for FM. Do people compare FM to FIFA? Not really, so why should people start comparing OOTP to MLB: The Show just because it uses some form of graphics.

Actually...people does...just not the people you know...

[tomwolf2008]

I have two (quite personal) reasons that don't want to see graph gets into game aside from the usual argument (like worries about Markus won't be able to spent as much time including game play, games might become unstable, games could be too big etc.)

1. What if graphic doesn't work? What I mean is if graphic failed buisness side, OOTP development could lose a lot of money, and given how small an OOTP is, every decision must be a sound one or we might not see another OOTP product. (and please do not argue that you can't lost money by adding graphics, there are companies that did)

2. I'm afraid that adding of graphic mght attract certain type of players that come in because of graphic but because the graphic is not as good as they wanted and started to badmouth the game, not sure if really worth it.

Now, I do want to see better graphics eventually implented into the game, but it should come at a time when gameplay is nearly perfect and Markus can afford have time and resource to take away from developing game play. (please don't say Markus could hire people to do the graphic and he can development gameplay independently, OOTP is not a big company as SI, maybe he can do this sometimes down the road, but not right now) So while I'm quite neutral about adding graphics, I don't think this should be a priority right now because I don't think Markus is ready to develop a somewhat decent graphic right now.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by tomwolf2008

2. I'm afraid that adding of graphic mght attract certain type of players that come in because of graphic but because the graphic is not as good as they wanted and started to badmouth the game, not sure if really worth it.

The thing is, that would be a minority of a minority. Some people would buy because of graphics, and some of them would complain about it. You also have to look at it from the point of view that at least some of those complaints would be valid, which could help improve the game.

I'd also be interested in how many sales adding graphics would bring in compared to how many current users would boycott an edition with graphics.

[Gil Thorp]

"Graphics? We don't need no stinkin' graphics!"

[sth0009]

How about some minor alterations to the existing graphics for the time being? Have a fly arc into the sky. Have a ground ball bounce.

Just a few things to add to the PbP for those who like to play thru games.

[DrSatan]

8=====D-------graphics haters

[BigCity]

We sure do take to dissecting graphics options for OOTP when we do no such thing with any other option in the game. Instead of discussing HOW graphics might be implemented, we only talk about WHETHER graphics should be implemented.

In doing so, we direct our opinions on how the market works (even though none of us are in the market), how Markus should spend his time (even though he owns the company), and even threaten to abandon the game if graphics is added (even though it will have an on-off switch).

OOTP has survived for 14 years now - suffered through both good versions and bad - made mistakes as well as home runs in design - and continues to be the BEST baseball simulation available. Markus' wanting to expand sales into a portion of the market that wants to see more on-field action is a logical step forward and one that has the POTENTIAL to increase sales significantly more than a dozen more technical improvements to existing options.

I honestly believe the most vocal opponents to graphics are "scared to death" that it will somehow destroy the game they know today. Although ANY change to the program (including technical "fixes") have the potential to go South and ruin a version, OOTP has been there before and recovered... and to ASSUME that is what is going to happen is fearing failure - which is never a sound reason to base a business decision on.

A 1980s graphics representation of the ball, fielders, and runners would be all that is needed to enter that market, and would be a relatively inexpensive investment compared to current high-end graphics capabilities. It wouldn't require an upgrade to anyone's PC, it wouldn't overshadow the statistic depth of the game, nor would it "compete" with those games where cutting edge graphics is the goal of the game. It would - AS ASKED FOR by many of OOTP's CURRENT customers - provide an improved graphical representation of the baseball game itself for those that wished to use it.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by sth0009

How about some minor alterations to the existing graphics for the time being? Have a fly arc into the sky. Have a ground ball bounce.

Just a few things to add to the PbP for those who like to play thru games.

That's a cool idea. I do wonder if it would actually be harder to implement than a whole new graphics system though lol.

[The Wolf]

I see a potentially huge downside - including possibly no more OOTP - from adding graphics, and no upside.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I see a potentially huge downside - including possibly no more OOTP - from adding graphics, and no upside.

Surely the obvious upside is a potential increase in sales, leading to an even better game?

And this thread reminds me of this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q33S5iZw270