New Leagues? - Page 5

thehef · 03-09-2016, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I don't believe you. There wasn't enough data recorded or preserved to get anywhere close to that.

What was it that was said by someone else upthread? A guess multiplied by a guess and divided by a guess is still a guess?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

"Box scores are often ambiguous, even contradictory. Stolen bases, pitchers of record, strikeouts, and even at bats and extra base hits, were not always given and had to be estimated if possible. When did spring training end and the regular season begin? Was an inter-league series a playoff or not?

In the final analysis, the research comes down to dedicated but fallible human beings, all good at their jobs, all striving to do perfect work, all men and women of good will.

And all still disagreeing."

- John B Holway, SABR Researcher, on Negro Leagues research

I won't even mention the Negro Leagues for which ENTIRE YEARS of stats are lost.

It's going to be the Y2k disaster all over again...

actionjackson · 03-09-2016, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

"Box scores are often ambiguous, even contradictory. Stolen bases, pitchers of record, strikeouts, and even at bats and extra base hits, were not always given and had to be estimated if possible. When did spring training end and the regular season begin? Was an inter-league series a playoff or not?

In the final analysis, the research comes down to dedicated but fallible human beings, all good at their jobs, all striving to do perfect work, all men and women of good will.

And all still disagreeing."

- John B Holway, SABR Researcher, on Negro Leagues research

I won't even mention the Negro Leagues for which ENTIRE YEARS of stats are lost.

Uh-huh...And when the players all went off to war, the game uses something called neutralized stats, if selected by the player, to fill in the gaps with guestimates of what their production might've been. That may be hideous to you, but it's far better than watching them sit on the sidelines for me.

Padreman · 03-09-2016, 03:45 PM

With all due respect Mr. Wolf what do you say that entire branch of baseball history should be excluded simply because we don't have enough data isn't right

Motorhead667 · 03-09-2016, 04:49 PM

What was it that was said by someone else upthread? A guess multiplied by a guess and divided by a guess is still a guess?[/QUOTE]

@ the wolf,
Sir, I really do not understand what all the fuss is about, I understand your position on this matter I really do.
But, if you think about it, The minute you start this game (ootp) you have already started your adventure into fantasy land, and isn't at the heart of all of this is fantasy baseball?
That is what we are all here for to see our favorite players perform, to see what might of, what could of, what should of been.
I do understand having things be as accurate as humanly possible I really do, I want that as well, But I also understand that once I start playing this game I have already altered history in the game.
All of the stats and records will all be different, if I pass the 2016 season random players will be generated, they are not real but I will learn to love them just the same.
And since it is all about fantasy I would love to see these leagues introduced into this game to make a much more enjoyable experience to those that want it in their baseball universe.
I hope that these leagues are added, no they won't be perfect but it will enrich a lot of fantasy baseball here at ootp.

mitchkenn · 03-09-2016, 04:52 PM

So, we each play the game the way we want, with our own rules & players from different sources and universes.
All in the OOTP game framework, but many from totally different points of view and outcomes. No one is right.
No one is wrong. And NONE of it is really real. It's a game. And some of us might like to play God maybe, and just
see how good those Negro League players might have compared to the Major Leaguers. It's not heresy, really.

maybe Bob Dylan said it best for/about me in the liner notes to The Times They Are A-Changin' album:
"when will he open up his eyes"
"who him? doncha know? he's a crazy man
he never opens up his eyes"
"but surely he'll miss the world go by"
"nah! he lives in his own world"

Lukas Berger · 03-09-2016, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I don't believe you. There wasn't enough data recorded or preserved to get anywhere close to that.

What was it that was said by someone else upthread? A guess multiplied by a guess and divided by a guess is still a guess?

Ok, that's enough with all this.

You've made your point, made it over and over again in fact, but anything more on the subject is going to be considered trolling.

Le Grande Orange · 03-09-2016, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Now that I have loaded a database with 4 different versions of negro league stats found on the internet or already in my possession I can report some actual numbers as far as completeness goes. This is raw data without any guesses applied.
1) Many players have no stats at all. That's about 25% of the players known to have existed. I'll just remove those from consideration.
2) Of the 11,000 batting records available they are 98.5% complete
3) Of the 4,000 pitching records available they are nearly 100% complete
4) Of the 22,000 fielding records available they are 95% complete.

You're missing an important factor, it seems to me: have these statistics been cross-checked with box score, team, and league totals? That is, do the box scores properly balance, and does the sum of the individual statistics balance with the team and league totals? That's an important part of verifying the data is accurate. If there are large discrepancies, then that calls into question the accuracy of the data.

Spritze · 03-09-2016, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

You're missing an important factor, it seems to me: have these statistics been cross-checked with box score, team, and league totals? That is, do the box scores properly balance, and does the sum of the individual statistics balance with the team and league totals? That's an important part of verifying the data is accurate. If there are large discrepancies, then that calls into question the accuracy of the data.

These stats are probably way too fluid to be cross-checked. I can only assume all the compilers are telling the truth based on the information they had access to. OOTP can take it from there.

joefromchicago · 03-09-2016, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Ok, that's enough with all this.

You've made your point, made it over and over again in fact, but anything more on the subject is going to be considered trolling.

Presumably that applies equally to all involved.

Le Grande Orange · 03-09-2016, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

These stats are probably way too fluid to be cross-checked.

Then that calls into question the statistical reliability of the data. (SABR goes through the cross-checking process for its minor league stats which are posted to Baseball-Reference.)

Spritze · 03-09-2016, 08:41 PM

Hah! When using the BBref minor league data I found thousands of discrepancies/errors so don't hang your hat on that. We used them anyway.

Le Grande Orange · 03-09-2016, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Hah! When using the BBref minor league data I found thousands of discrepancies/errors so don't hang your hat on that. We used them anyway.

I've actually commented on that elsewhere, noting how sometimes even something as basic as the league standings don't match the team pitching won-loss records. What I can't tell is whether that problem is on SABR's end or Baseball-Reference's end.

(For SABR's part, it has said that the stats will likely never balance perfectly. They just get them to as few discrepancies as possible.)

David Watts · 03-10-2016, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Accurately means creating players with the skill set they had IRL. OOTP takes it from there. As you note final standings are meaningless. OOTP uses players not standings of course.

Still trying to wrap my head around a lot of this and my questions deal more with the historical minor leagues than the Negro League, but this is where it's being discussed, so her goes: From reading this thread, I get the idea that the Negro Leagues and or historical minors are best suited to those that play historical or fictorial (see what I did there) solely using the OOTP development engine. In otherwords, no recalc. I'm probably way wrong, but your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

Spritze · 03-10-2016, 11:41 AM

Either way will work. Just depends on your play preference. Personally I use both together.

David Watts · 03-10-2016, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Either way will work. Just depends on your play preference. Personally I use both together.

Well I'm a both guy too, so that's good to hear.

actionjackson · 03-10-2016, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

Well I'm a both guy too, so that's good to hear.

As long as there are stats upon which to base recalc (and it sounds like there will be in these cases), recalc will always work. It may not work as purely as some in this thread would like it to, but it will work.

03-09-2016, 03:45 PM	#83
Padreman Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2013 Location: Tijuana, Baja California, Mexico (formally San Diego, CA.) Posts: 4,140 Blog Entries: 1	With all due respect Mr. Wolf what do you say that entire branch of baseball history should be excluded simply because we don't have enough data isn't right __________________ Chargers= Despicable Traitors

03-09-2016, 04:52 PM	#85
mitchkenn Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Oregon, not by design Posts: 2,853	So, we each play the game the way we want, with our own rules & players from different sources and universes. All in the OOTP game framework, but many from totally different points of view and outcomes. No one is right. No one is wrong. And NONE of it is really real. It's a game. And some of us might like to play God maybe, and just see how good those Negro League players might have compared to the Major Leaguers. It's not heresy, really. maybe Bob Dylan said it best for/about me in the liner notes to The Times They Are A-Changin' album: "when will he open up his eyes" "who him? doncha know? he's a crazy man he never opens up his eyes" "but surely he'll miss the world go by" "nah! he lives in his own world" __________________ "This is my opening farewell " - Jackson Browne “They make a desolation and call it peace.” ― Agha Shahid Ali "Maybe she just has to sing, for the sake of the song - And who do I think that I am to decide that she's wrong." - Townes Van Zandt "I saw a young man leaning on his wooden crutch - He called out to me, 'Don't ask for so much' And a young woman leaning in her darkened door She cried out to me, 'Why not ask for more?' " - Leonard Cohen "Hello darkness, my old Friend ...." - Paul Simon Before Mays, before DiMaggio, there was Oscar Charleston. "All the lies about Babe Ruth are true." - Waite Hoyt Avatar is the late great Townes Van Zandt. rip. Last edited by mitchkenn; 03-09-2016 at 04:57 PM. Reason: correct typo

03-09-2016, 08:41 PM	#91
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	Hah! When using the BBref minor league data I found thousands of discrepancies/errors so don't hang your hat on that. We used them anyway. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-10-2016, 11:41 AM	#94
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	Either way will work. Just depends on your play preference. Personally I use both together. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-09-2016, 04:49 PM	#84
Motorhead667 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 576	What was it that was said by someone else upthread? A guess multiplied by a guess and divided by a guess is still a guess?[/QUOTE] @ the wolf, Sir, I really do not understand what all the fuss is about, I understand your position on this matter I really do. But, if you think about it, The minute you start this game (ootp) you have already started your adventure into fantasy land, and isn't at the heart of all of this is fantasy baseball? That is what we are all here for to see our favorite players perform, to see what might of, what could of, what should of been. I do understand having things be as accurate as humanly possible I really do, I want that as well, But I also understand that once I start playing this game I have already altered history in the game. All of the stats and records will all be different, if I pass the 2016 season random players will be generated, they are not real but I will learn to love them just the same. And since it is all about fantasy I would love to see these leagues introduced into this game to make a much more enjoyable experience to those that want it in their baseball universe. I hope that these leagues are added, no they won't be perfect but it will enrich a lot of fantasy baseball here at ootp.