Competitive balance discussion - Page 63

webdox · 01-08-2019, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matingly23

What am I not going to hear sunshine? That I spelled a username incorrectly?

All I hear is another sad, small person puffing out their chest over a lie.

You sort of swung and missed with the sarcasm I was laying on the person I replied to. But I digress...

I tend to feel the passive aggressive and in some cases overt insults I've read in my short time here lean towards the bit excessive side but that is to be expected when you are stepping on someone else's infield. One that they have been playing on for many years in some cases it seems... I've found the ignore feature to be quite useful. In any event...

It is at the end of the day... just a game that should be enjoyed. I hope you can find a way to still compete AND have fun while doing it... My crap team keeps getting promoted and demoted back to Gold when they belong. Not always the best fun but I've been enjoying this new iteration of the game for the most part. I like opening packs. What can I say...

uschi_baerchen · 01-09-2019, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zrog2000

... There has only been discussion about making the game more enjoyable for the people who don't spend hundreds of dollars. ...

But their enjoyment is defined by themselves and must be achieved by themselves. If the enjoyment is to go to a perfect league without spending Money, then this type of enjoyment (probably) can´t be achieved. If they built up a Rotation of say Corbin, Dierker, Syndergard, Whitley in order to get a combined ERA of 3,50 in Diamond and NOT spent more than 10.000 PP they can go for it. If it enlarges their enjoyment, when their Rotation gets an ERA of 2,95 it is fine, it they now think, it is their geniality, they are in trouble. If the next season Syndergard has 4,40, Corbin 4,80 and Whitley and Dierker 5,10 each they will probably think the AI has cheated them.

In other words: in order to enjoy this game you must have realistic Goals within the confinements of the (financial) restrictions you have to or are willing to adhere to.

uschi_baerchen · 01-09-2019, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matingly23

We want to get away from this Whale! We're trying hard to go 0-162 and head back to Silver.

Define "whale". Are you talking about a Team who has De Groom Sale Treinen as well as Betts/Trout/Simmons? Then I unfortunately must tell you:

1. in my Diamond League there is exactly one of this "whales"
2. this whale was relegated from Perfect
3. my non-whale-Team (it was cheaper than DeGroom alone) is in it´s third 50% Diamond season

In other words: it is a very small whale (though this whale eats all the other Diamond fishes alive)

uschi_baerchen · 01-09-2019, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matingly23

Well I was robbed this week by horrible balance.

Ok, there are 30 Teams in the two leagues and you won the WS in 3 out of 6 seasons, right? And the other 29 Teams shared the other 3 WS, right? What did the other 29 owner said about their competitiveness compared to you? I think you are complaining on a much to high Level

uschi_baerchen · 01-09-2019, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matingly23

There is value still, if your DeGrom card goes cold just before the playoffs, you switch to the other one.

You are using every chicanery, I did not knew, that duplicate Players might be worthwhile, now I do,

Clavette · 01-09-2019, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matingly23

The team I faced in Silver had 15 100 rated cards and the rest were all 90+. It had 80+ more on the reserve roster with the lowest one being rated an 80.

But yeah, since we're talking about competitive balance, I'm obviously "blowing things out of proportion".

Tell me exactly how a free team in Silver is supposed to compete with that? It's called being broken.

It is being blown out of proportion. Wait a week and that team will be out of silver. Simple fact

freedavebrown · 01-09-2019, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uschi_baerchen

Define "whale". Are you talking about a Team who has De Groom Sale Treinen as well as Betts/Trout/Simmons? Then I unfortunately must tell you:

1. in my Diamond League there is exactly one of this "whales"
2. this whale was relegated from Perfect
3. my non-whale-Team (it was cheaper than DeGroom alone) is in it´s third 50% Diamond season

In other words: it is a very small whale (though this whale eats all the other Diamond fishes alive)

If you think that is Whale, you have not seen a Whale. The true whales in perfect have historical diamonds in their reserve rosters because they cant get a spot on the active.

matingly23 · 01-09-2019, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uschi_baerchen

Ok, there are 30 Teams in the two leagues and you won the WS in 3 out of 6 seasons, right? And the other 29 Teams shared the other 3 WS, right? What did the other 29 owner said about their competitiveness compared to you? I think you are complaining on a much to high Level

I'd only been in the league for 3 weeks and there were no play-offs in week 1. I have three teams. All made the play-offs in week 1, two were WCs, one won a division. I won both WC games, all three teams though lost in round one, that was Bronze. Fair losses, all teams were more or less equal.

In Silver one team just missed the WC. The other two won their divisions. One got to the round before the WS and lost to the Whales. The other made the WS and lost to the Whales. Not fair losses, I was against a team of ringers that belong in the Perfect level, not anywhere near Silver.

Losing to decent strategy is a whole lot different than losing to a wad of cash.

matingly23 · 01-09-2019, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freedavebrown

If you think that is Whale, you have not seen a Whale. The true whales in perfect have historical diamonds in their reserve rosters because they cant get a spot on the active.

That's about what I would expect for teams in that level, not in Silver.

If a team buys a million+ PP, it should be moved to Perfect, not made to "work" its way up, crushing free teams in the process.

matingly23 · 01-09-2019, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clavette

It is being blown out of proportion. Wait a week and that team will be out of silver. Simple fact

Yes they were promoted to Gold, so were two of my teams. And guess what, I am in a Gold league with the same Whale and again it's a lost week as no one has a chance to win.

I won't be in a league with that team next week.

matingly23 · 01-09-2019, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uschi_baerchen

Define "whale". Are you talking about a Team who has De Groom Sale Treinen as well as Betts/Trout/Simmons? Then I unfortunately must tell you:

1. in my Diamond League there is exactly one of this "whales"
2. this whale was relegated from Perfect
3. my non-whale-Team (it was cheaper than DeGroom alone) is in it´s third 50% Diamond season

In other words: it is a very small whale (though this whale eats all the other Diamond fishes alive)

I'm in week 3 and in Silver, or was last week when this was happening. Even now on week 4, two of my teams are in a Gold league with the same whale.

https://imgur.com/a/iEPqRNn

That team was in a Silver league "competing" against free teams.

They had about a .750 winning percentage, and that was with guys being played out of position to train up.

The discord has the user mentioning how he feels sorry for other teams in the same league as his "destroyer".

I call that a Moby Dick. If I played that team 1,000 times in a WS I would probably lose every single time.

Kushiel · 01-09-2019, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matingly23

I'm in week 3 and in Silver, or was last week when this was happening. Even now on week 4, two of my teams are in a Gold league with the same whale.

https://imgur.com/a/iEPqRNn

That team was in a Silver league "competing" against free teams.

They had about a .750 winning percentage, and that was with guys being played out of position to train up.

The discord has the user mentioning how he feels sorry for other teams in the same league as his "destroyer".

I call that a Moby Dick. If I played that team 1,000 times in a WS I would probably lose every single time.

If you ever get promoted to a Perfect League, you will have a heart attack as soon as you see all the teams that you have to play every day of the season.

Radsmats · 01-09-2019, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matingly23

If a team buys a million+ PP, it should be moved to Perfect, not made to "work" its way up, crushing free teams in the process.

Dingdingdingding! We have a winner! It's about providing competition at whatever level you choose to play the game.

My first season in bronze, there was a team that had 17 golds whose fifth-string catcher would have made my squad. It wasn't competitive. They made zero changes until August, when the best of the F2P teams had scratched to within a game or two, then buffed up their lineups / pitching staff and won the regular season by about 10 games, then the WS, and moved up. The fact that they only adjusted their team once all year suggests it wasn't exactly thrilling for them either. The top 3-4 "regular" teams ... (ie a blend of gold through bronze and perhaps even iron players) fought it out for the WC and nobody else had a legitimate chance of winning. I spent most of the season hunting the bargain basement of the AH, which I found a little grindy but OK. Most of the teams were not competitive.

My second season I was very active and eventually wound up with a 101-win team, second-best in the league after a tie-breaker (unfortunately in the same division as the best team, who I just could not beat head-to-head). Lacking the one top-heavy team, there was a large group of teams in the 85-90ish wins group playing for the WC spots. It was a lot of fun. Most of the teams were in the running for a WC spot into August.

Due to a quirky game mechanic (the game used my WC starter in the tie-breaker game) I lost the WC game behind a shaky No. 3 starter and did not get promoted. Now, in my third season in bronze with half a dozen golds and a selection of carefully platooned silvers, I'm in first place by double digits in June. I made two roster moves all year (swapped No. 5 starters, slotted in an OF after I hit 5,000 points and bought my one pack so far). It's the dullest season so far; there's no way to improve my team without sitting around waiting to build up PP, so no point haunting the auction. I'm literally waiting a week to get into a competitive league again. The WC race hasn't really started heating up, but none of the other teams is even .500 against me and I'm frankly embarrassed to be bullying the league.

My conclusions:
1) The game needs a better promotion algorithm. I should have been promoted based on a regular season where there were two teams well above the competition, not held back because of a fluky, one-game WC result.
2) The game is more fun when the leagues are more or less evenly matched. Starting teams at/near their competitive level would go a long way toward improving that experience. It's not about whining because somebody else spent money, it's about wanting to be in a competitive league on a regular basis. The chase is 90% of the value of the game, not the title.

Maddox · 01-09-2019, 09:22 AM

I don't know how you get around teams starting at the bottom and working their way up. At worst it only takes them three weeks before they make it to diamond.

That is 3 weeks out of 52 (when the new version comes out). Some people are making it sound like it will happen every single week of season.

waylander · 01-09-2019, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janks

Dare I even ask this question?

If you set up a FTP league/server/utopia, what happens when the first pack you buy with your hard earned PP has a duplicate card (or just another version) of a card you already have. You now have 2 deGroms. Who is going to buy one?

Right now, you can sell it to a whale or a WIT (Whale-in-Training) and set up your team quite nicely. On the FTP server, no one will have enough points to buy some of their favorite players.

OOTP PT is kind of like this planet. There is only one and we all need to get along.

Now back to the Whale Week programming on WPT.

We discussed the F2P server option extensively during beta. It's a bad business move because it destroys the market for the casual spender. The casual spender is not going to drop 20 bucks on packs if it means he is now gated from the F2p leagues and is placed in the whale leagues. The second someone spends a dollar - they are punished by being pushed into the pro leagues. With this scenario, the vast majority of players will never spend a penny and this mode dries up and dies.

zrog2000 · 01-09-2019, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kushiel

If you ever get promoted to a Perfect League, you will have a heart attack as soon as you see all the teams that you have to play every day of the season.

That's the wall that is the issue. I am competitive in diamond with two teams (one FTP), but I really don't want to be promoted to perfect because my middling teams will not ever be competitive there and I refuse to spend the $500 that it would take to be competitive. So now what? Losing interest quickly.

atabakin · 01-09-2019, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zrog2000

That's the wall that is the issue. I am competitive in diamond with two teams (one FTP), but I really don't want to be promoted to perfect because my middling teams will not ever be competitive there and I refuse to spend the $500 that it would take to be competitive. So now what? Losing interest quickly.

I feel like this could be solved relatively easily in 20 with a couple more levels for whales to promote into. I'm middle of the pack, give or take, in Perfect right now. Don't want to throw more money at it, so it's just kind of there, and I'm focusing more on my FTP teams. Not bitter or frustrated, it just is what it is for now.

DonkeyKongSr · 01-09-2019, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kushiel

If you ever get promoted to a Perfect League, you will have a heart attack as soon as you see all the teams that you have to play every day of the season.

To be fair, that team he posted is absolutely insane. A true $1000+ team. It's got almost all the Perfects.

Maddox · 01-09-2019, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atabakin

I feel like this could be solved relatively easily in 20 with a couple more levels for whales to promote into. I'm middle of the pack, give or take, in Perfect right now. Don't want to throw more money at it, so it's just kind of there, and I'm focusing more on my FTP teams. Not bitter or frustrated, it just is what it is for now.

I could still see the same thing happening even with more levels. Eventually teams will be promoted to a league that they feel that they cannot compete in. My gold team is leading their division this year after finishing in the basement for previous two years. If I somehow pull it out and get promoted to diamond I feel like I won't be able to compete. So regardless of the number of levels it will happen to people.

My hope is that tournaments next year can add enough variety that people don't become too fixated on the leagues and seasons and what the whales are doing.

atabakin · 01-09-2019, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maddox

I could still see the same thing happening even with more levels. Eventually teams will be promoted to a league that they feel that they cannot compete in. My gold team is leading their division this year after finishing in the basement for previous two years. If I somehow pull it out and get promoted to diamond I feel like I won't be able to compete. So regardless of the number of levels it will happen to people.

My hope is that tournaments next year can add enough variety that people don't become too fixated on the leagues and seasons and what the whales are doing.

I'm looking forward to tournaments, if nothing else as a reason to keep more cards on the reserve roster instead of just selling everything you don't need!

More levels isn't the panacea, but at least it would continue to provide separation and lengthen the time it takes to reach equilibrium. I got the second wild card last season and am a few games under .500 this season. It would be better if I at least had to fight from getting relegated, but there's not even that to contend with. Not racking up enough points to upgrade, don't want to find creative ways to drop down without violating the TOS.

01-09-2019, 09:22 AM	#1254
Maddox All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 903	I don't know how you get around teams starting at the bottom and working their way up. At worst it only takes them three weeks before they make it to diamond. That is 3 weeks out of 52 (when the new version comes out). Some people are making it sound like it will happen every single week of season.