Inception of 40 man roster?

djl81790 · 08-01-2014, 11:59 PM

Hey all,

Was wondering if anyone knew when the idea for the 40-man roster came about, as well as September call-ups. I'm playing a 1946 historical replay right now and am wondering if my roster rules are right. I know the 25 man roster was pretty much set in the 1910s but I'm have difficulty really finding out anything about the 40 man online. Figured you guys might know...

txranger · 08-02-2014, 09:25 AM

I found this info some time ago... Maybe this will help you out...

Biggio509 · 08-05-2014, 12:55 PM

The previous post comes from this site.

League Operating Rules

Cliff Bluagh's league operating rules. It is a gold mine of when things happened.

NB: You can't perfectly simulate all changes. For instance options worked quite differently in the beginning than they do now. If you want to use forty man rosters also depends largely on how you are playing. If you assign minor league teams like they are today from the 1890's to post Branch Rickey you might want waivers and the 40 man roster. If you play with independent minors where teams can buy the minor league players the 40 man is less important. You will have reserve rosters and you can just change the league roster rules to reflect the offseason numbers and cut down dates.

The one thing you can't do is turn off reserve rosters so if you have independent minors you have a way the AI will option to the minors with no real consequence. The only way around this is to go into commissioner mode and release all the players on team's reserve rosters after the cut off date.

This article explains the problems with recreating options. Since there is no way for a major league to sell to minors with a buy-back clause it makes waivers and options tricky prior to the modern era where teams owned the minor league clubs and began to act like today.

"This is still a work in progress. I am uncertain about the number of optional assignments allowed from 1915 to 1931, as well as a few other facts.

In the years before the farm system was developed, Major League teams often faced a quandry. If they had a promising player who wasn't quite ready for the big time, they could either carry him on their roster at the expense of keeping another, more experienced player, or they could sell him to an independent minor league team. The latter course involved the risk that another club would buy the player once he had developed. Therefore, a method was devised that let the big league clubs have their cake and eat it, too. They arranged to sell players to minor league teams with the right to repurchase him at a later date at a fixed price. These became known as optional agreements or assignments.

Although they began in the 19th Century, optional assignments were banned as part of the National Agreement in 1903. However, this rule quickly proved to be unenforceable and in 1905 optional assignments were permitted subject to the approval of the National Commission. This allowed teams to send players to the minors and bring them back without having to request waivers.
Following the 1907 season, a rule was established allowing each player to be sent out on option only once. Starting 1914, teams had the right to send two players out on option a second consecutive year. In 1921, all players were allowed to be optioned two consecutive years, and in 1931, this had been increased to three years, although that number was reduced by one for each year a player had spent in the Major Leagues. Beginning in 1965, players who had fewer than five years professional experience could be optioned for four seasons. However, veteran players could not be sent to the minors without their consent, beginning in 1914. At that time, the requirement was that the player have 10 years experience in the Major Leagues. This was lowered to eight in 1954 and to five in 1973.

Once the permited number of optional assignments had been reached for a given player, he was "out of options" and had to be sent outright to the minors. In this case, he had to go through the major league draft before the Major League team could reacquire him, previous to 1965. Thereafter until 1986, he could be recalled if he cleared waivers. In 1986 the waiver requirement was removed.
In 1912, major league teams were limited to 8 optional agreements. This was increased in 1916 (just for one year) to 16 players for NL teams and 15 for the AL; 5 of them could be on their second option. By 1921, the limit was apparently at 8 per team. During the 1920's, there were various reports of increases in the limit, including one imposed unilaterly by the Major Leagues in 1924 that was overturned by Commissioner Landis the following year. However, the official limit was apparently eight throughout this time, but in practice teams were optioning as many as fifteen players. In 1931, with the signing of the new National Agreement, the limit was finally increased to 15 per team, where it remained until 1982, when it was changed to 16.

From 1914 to 1916, players had to clear waivers before they could be optioned below Class AA.

With the minor leagues abrogating the National Agreement in 1919, optional assignments were not sanctioned for that year and the next. They were restored in 1921, but in 1922 optional assignments were forbidden to leagues which did not participate in the minor league draft (which included the three Class AA leagues) until 1924.
After 1952, players could not be recalled between July 31 and the end of the minor league season. That restriction was eliminated after the 1964 season.

Once a player is optioned to the minors, he must stay there for 10 days, except under certain specific circumstances. Also, assignments lasting less than 20 days (30 days before 1976) do not count as options. No matter how many times a player is sent to the minors in a single season, only one option is considered to be used."

Options

Waivers also worked differently than they do in the game prior to the modern era.

Waiver Rules

"This is a work in progress. More information is needed in the area of when waiver requests could be withdrawn, as well as the various waiver periods. Unless otherwise stated, these rules deal with waivers for assigning a player to another team, rather than for releasing the player.

The precursor to modern waiver rules began early in Major League Baseball's history as a means of controlling players. From the earliest days, teams could release players upon ten days notice. In 1885, a rule was implemented allowing the other clubs in the league to claim a player once his team has given notice of intent to release him. He did not have to give his consent, although if more than one team put in a claim for him, he was allowed to choose which one he would play for. Prior to 1895, teams could withdraw the notice of release. An additional waiver-like feature was added in 1896, when it was decided that no player could be sold to a minor league unless all the other Major League teams refused to purchase him on the same terms. The process of waiving the right to purchase a player's contract was formalized in 1903. Whenever a team wished to release or farm a player, it placed his name on a list which was circulated throughout the league. Only if he was not claimed could the team do as it wished. Otherwise, the claiming team would buy the player. Two years later, the player had to clear waivers in both leagues.

The two leagues diverged in their practice after 1907. The NL did not allow players to be withdrawn from the waiver list after they were claimed, while the AL did. Also, in the AL, once a team claimed a player on waivers, it could not place him on waivers for 30 days. If it did, the team they had obtained him from had 10 days to sell him to a team outside the league without waivers being required. This became the rule in both leagues in 1921, with the added provision of a 90 day limit during the offseason. The NL bounced back and forth on allowing waiver requests to be revoked; after the 1909 season it made them revocable within two days of the claim, but in 1915 they became irrevocable (except on drafted players). In 1918 they were made revocable again, but this only lasted a year, when both leagues switched (the AL changed its mind again in 1920). In 1921, revocability was again in fashion in both leagues, within 5 days of a claim, and in 1923, the period was shortened to 2 days. Waiver claims could not be withdrawn. Waiver requests for the purpose of unconditionally releasing a player have been irrevocable since December 1921.
The interleague waiver price was established at $1000 in 1903. Starting 1908, the waiver price was set by the league president with a $1,500 limit, until 1921, when a fixed price of $4,000 was established. For interleague waivers, this was increased to $7,500 in 1927. An exception existed for players purchased from the minor leagues; the cost of claiming them was equal to the purchase price. The NL raised their price to $6,000 in 1934 and in 1939 matched the interleague price of $7,500, while the AL jumped their intraleague fee from $4,000 to $7,500 in 1935. In 1947, the price was raised to $10,000, where it remained until 1958, when it was doubled.

Originally, waivers were on a first-come, first-served basis. As of 1910, if more than one team claimed a player from the waiver list, one team was chosen by lot to receive him. In 1921, this was changed; the team lowest in the standings was given priority (except for release waivers; that rule was changed in 1924.) An amendment in 1940 provided that if two teams with the same record selected a player, the prior season records would be used to break the tie.

During the 1945 season, a controversy arose after Hank Borowy was waived out of the American League and went to the first place Cubs. At the time, teams could place their entire roster on waivers to see if there was any interest in the players, then withdraw anyone who was claimed. To curb such abuses, beginning in 1947, a limit of 7 players per team per day was placed on waiver requests. After a player was withdrawn from the list twice in a year, he could not be removed again if claimed. Once a player was withdrawn, waivers could not be requested again for 30 days (this waiting period was 10 days in 1945). Also, the price to claim a player who is on waivers to be unconditionally released was dropped to $1. In 1973, beginning November 11, the rule was changed so that a player could be withdrawn only once a year after being claimed. As a result of the 1985 collective bargaining agreement, this was amended so that it only applied during a given waiver period. However, if the waivers were requested for the purpose of sending a player outright to the minors, they were irrevocable.

Once a player clears waivers, he can be sent to another club until the end of the waiver period."

I mention this because it is related to the 40 man roster in the game. So for instance if you want to recreate the early game years you might want a secondary roster = to your teams roster number. For instance a 15 man roster with a secondary 15 man roster. If waivers are on they a team would have to put someone on waivers to get a new player on the roster. This in essence would be like the team letting everyone know they were going to release the guy.

08-01-2014, 11:59 PM	#1
djl81790 Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 17	Inception of 40 man roster? Hey all, Was wondering if anyone knew when the idea for the 40-man roster came about, as well as September call-ups. I'm playing a 1946 historical replay right now and am wondering if my roster rules are right. I know the 25 man roster was pretty much set in the 1910s but I'm have difficulty really finding out anything about the 40 man online. Figured you guys might know...

08-02-2014, 09:25 AM	#2
txranger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: "Deep in the Heart Of" Posts: 8,202	I found this info some time ago... Maybe this will help you out... Attached Images __________________

08-05-2014, 12:55 PM	#3
Biggio509 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,025	The previous post comes from this site. League Operating Rules Cliff Bluagh's league operating rules. It is a gold mine of when things happened. NB: You can't perfectly simulate all changes. For instance options worked quite differently in the beginning than they do now. If you want to use forty man rosters also depends largely on how you are playing. If you assign minor league teams like they are today from the 1890's to post Branch Rickey you might want waivers and the 40 man roster. If you play with independent minors where teams can buy the minor league players the 40 man is less important. You will have reserve rosters and you can just change the league roster rules to reflect the offseason numbers and cut down dates. The one thing you can't do is turn off reserve rosters so if you have independent minors you have a way the AI will option to the minors with no real consequence. The only way around this is to go into commissioner mode and release all the players on team's reserve rosters after the cut off date. This article explains the problems with recreating options. Since there is no way for a major league to sell to minors with a buy-back clause it makes waivers and options tricky prior to the modern era where teams owned the minor league clubs and began to act like today. "This is still a work in progress. I am uncertain about the number of optional assignments allowed from 1915 to 1931, as well as a few other facts. In the years before the farm system was developed, Major League teams often faced a quandry. If they had a promising player who wasn't quite ready for the big time, they could either carry him on their roster at the expense of keeping another, more experienced player, or they could sell him to an independent minor league team. The latter course involved the risk that another club would buy the player once he had developed. Therefore, a method was devised that let the big league clubs have their cake and eat it, too. They arranged to sell players to minor league teams with the right to repurchase him at a later date at a fixed price. These became known as optional agreements or assignments. Although they began in the 19th Century, optional assignments were banned as part of the National Agreement in 1903. However, this rule quickly proved to be unenforceable and in 1905 optional assignments were permitted subject to the approval of the National Commission. This allowed teams to send players to the minors and bring them back without having to request waivers. Following the 1907 season, a rule was established allowing each player to be sent out on option only once. Starting 1914, teams had the right to send two players out on option a second consecutive year. In 1921, all players were allowed to be optioned two consecutive years, and in 1931, this had been increased to three years, although that number was reduced by one for each year a player had spent in the Major Leagues. Beginning in 1965, players who had fewer than five years professional experience could be optioned for four seasons. However, veteran players could not be sent to the minors without their consent, beginning in 1914. At that time, the requirement was that the player have 10 years experience in the Major Leagues. This was lowered to eight in 1954 and to five in 1973. Once the permited number of optional assignments had been reached for a given player, he was "out of options" and had to be sent outright to the minors. In this case, he had to go through the major league draft before the Major League team could reacquire him, previous to 1965. Thereafter until 1986, he could be recalled if he cleared waivers. In 1986 the waiver requirement was removed. In 1912, major league teams were limited to 8 optional agreements. This was increased in 1916 (just for one year) to 16 players for NL teams and 15 for the AL; 5 of them could be on their second option. By 1921, the limit was apparently at 8 per team. During the 1920's, there were various reports of increases in the limit, including one imposed unilaterly by the Major Leagues in 1924 that was overturned by Commissioner Landis the following year. However, the official limit was apparently eight throughout this time, but in practice teams were optioning as many as fifteen players. In 1931, with the signing of the new National Agreement, the limit was finally increased to 15 per team, where it remained until 1982, when it was changed to 16. From 1914 to 1916, players had to clear waivers before they could be optioned below Class AA. With the minor leagues abrogating the National Agreement in 1919, optional assignments were not sanctioned for that year and the next. They were restored in 1921, but in 1922 optional assignments were forbidden to leagues which did not participate in the minor league draft (which included the three Class AA leagues) until 1924. After 1952, players could not be recalled between July 31 and the end of the minor league season. That restriction was eliminated after the 1964 season. Once a player is optioned to the minors, he must stay there for 10 days, except under certain specific circumstances. Also, assignments lasting less than 20 days (30 days before 1976) do not count as options. No matter how many times a player is sent to the minors in a single season, only one option is considered to be used." Options Waivers also worked differently than they do in the game prior to the modern era. Waiver Rules "This is a work in progress. More information is needed in the area of when waiver requests could be withdrawn, as well as the various waiver periods. Unless otherwise stated, these rules deal with waivers for assigning a player to another team, rather than for releasing the player. The precursor to modern waiver rules began early in Major League Baseball's history as a means of controlling players. From the earliest days, teams could release players upon ten days notice. In 1885, a rule was implemented allowing the other clubs in the league to claim a player once his team has given notice of intent to release him. He did not have to give his consent, although if more than one team put in a claim for him, he was allowed to choose which one he would play for. Prior to 1895, teams could withdraw the notice of release. An additional waiver-like feature was added in 1896, when it was decided that no player could be sold to a minor league unless all the other Major League teams refused to purchase him on the same terms. The process of waiving the right to purchase a player's contract was formalized in 1903. Whenever a team wished to release or farm a player, it placed his name on a list which was circulated throughout the league. Only if he was not claimed could the team do as it wished. Otherwise, the claiming team would buy the player. Two years later, the player had to clear waivers in both leagues. The two leagues diverged in their practice after 1907. The NL did not allow players to be withdrawn from the waiver list after they were claimed, while the AL did. Also, in the AL, once a team claimed a player on waivers, it could not place him on waivers for 30 days. If it did, the team they had obtained him from had 10 days to sell him to a team outside the league without waivers being required. This became the rule in both leagues in 1921, with the added provision of a 90 day limit during the offseason. The NL bounced back and forth on allowing waiver requests to be revoked; after the 1909 season it made them revocable within two days of the claim, but in 1915 they became irrevocable (except on drafted players). In 1918 they were made revocable again, but this only lasted a year, when both leagues switched (the AL changed its mind again in 1920). In 1921, revocability was again in fashion in both leagues, within 5 days of a claim, and in 1923, the period was shortened to 2 days. Waiver claims could not be withdrawn. Waiver requests for the purpose of unconditionally releasing a player have been irrevocable since December 1921. The interleague waiver price was established at $1000 in 1903. Starting 1908, the waiver price was set by the league president with a $1,500 limit, until 1921, when a fixed price of $4,000 was established. For interleague waivers, this was increased to $7,500 in 1927. An exception existed for players purchased from the minor leagues; the cost of claiming them was equal to the purchase price. The NL raised their price to $6,000 in 1934 and in 1939 matched the interleague price of $7,500, while the AL jumped their intraleague fee from $4,000 to $7,500 in 1935. In 1947, the price was raised to $10,000, where it remained until 1958, when it was doubled. Originally, waivers were on a first-come, first-served basis. As of 1910, if more than one team claimed a player from the waiver list, one team was chosen by lot to receive him. In 1921, this was changed; the team lowest in the standings was given priority (except for release waivers; that rule was changed in 1924.) An amendment in 1940 provided that if two teams with the same record selected a player, the prior season records would be used to break the tie. During the 1945 season, a controversy arose after Hank Borowy was waived out of the American League and went to the first place Cubs. At the time, teams could place their entire roster on waivers to see if there was any interest in the players, then withdraw anyone who was claimed. To curb such abuses, beginning in 1947, a limit of 7 players per team per day was placed on waiver requests. After a player was withdrawn from the list twice in a year, he could not be removed again if claimed. Once a player was withdrawn, waivers could not be requested again for 30 days (this waiting period was 10 days in 1945). Also, the price to claim a player who is on waivers to be unconditionally released was dropped to $1. In 1973, beginning November 11, the rule was changed so that a player could be withdrawn only once a year after being claimed. As a result of the 1985 collective bargaining agreement, this was amended so that it only applied during a given waiver period. However, if the waivers were requested for the purpose of sending a player outright to the minors, they were irrevocable. Once a player clears waivers, he can be sent to another club until the end of the waiver period." I mention this because it is related to the 40 man roster in the game. So for instance if you want to recreate the early game years you might want a secondary roster = to your teams roster number. For instance a 15 man roster with a secondary 15 man roster. If waivers are on they a team would have to put someone on waivers to get a new player on the roster. This in essence would be like the team letting everyone know they were going to release the guy.