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Old 01-14-2015, 03:56 PM   #1
Westheim
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How is this an earned run?

What the title says. Randyboy was booked with an earned run for this inning. He walks Jenkins, who advances to second on a botched pickoff by the catcher. Randy then throws a wild pitch before the runner is singled home. If the runner gained a base on an error I would have assumed the run is unearned unless he scores on a home run f.e.?
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Old 01-14-2015, 04:09 PM   #2
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Well, if there isn't an error, the wild pitch will get him to second, single will get him to third, and fielder's choice will get him home, so the run scores regardless of error, thus it's an earned run.
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Old 01-14-2015, 04:22 PM   #3
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That sounds convincing but doesn't explain why the run was given as earned instantly after it scored.
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Old 01-14-2015, 04:30 PM   #4
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Single into rightfield would probably have scored him anyway if he'd still been at 2nd (BB, wild pitch, single)?
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Old 01-14-2015, 04:42 PM   #5
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Wild pitches do not affect earned runs. Passed balls do. Essentially PB are an extra error category for catchers.
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Old 01-14-2015, 04:44 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westheim View Post
That sounds convincing but doesn't explain why the run was given as earned instantly after it scored.
Because OOTP does not have the capability to reconstruct innings. There are plays in game that will be earned or unearned that can't be changed.
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“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

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Old 01-14-2015, 04:52 PM   #7
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While this may be the real explanation for the specific scenario ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izz View Post
Single into rightfield would probably have scored him anyway if he'd still been at 2nd (BB, wild pitch, single)?
... this would describe a slight problem the game has:

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Because OOTP does not have the capability to reconstruct innings. There are plays in game that will be earned or unearned that can't be changed.
Well, we can always hope for 16, right?
(Yes I know I'm playing 12. Yes, I have 15. No, I have never even installed it.)

Thx guys.
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Old 01-14-2015, 04:58 PM   #8
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Because OOTP does not have the capability to reconstruct innings.
I have certainly made this point many times in the past ... however, I think this may not be entirely true now. I believe that Markus added (or improved, if he wishes I would say ) a routine that will correct ERs at the end of an inning. And I believe I have seen this in action. It would be great if someone were able to confirm this.

Your point that some ERs still aren't corrected, even so, is almost certainly correct.
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Old 01-14-2015, 05:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westheim View Post
That sounds convincing but doesn't explain why the run was given as earned instantly after it scored.
When there's only a single base-runner affected by the error, and that base-runner scores, you really don't have to reconstruct the entire inning in order to determine if the run is earned or unearned. In your example, the scorer could determine immediately if the run was earned because as soon as the runner crossed home plate, the effect of the error could be calculated as to him (it might still have affected subsequent runners as a "fourth out," but it didn't turn out that way in this instance).
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Old 01-14-2015, 05:06 PM   #10
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Quote:
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And I believe I have seen this in action. It would be great if someone were able to confirm this.
I've seen it too, though i have no screenshots or specific remembered examples to confirm.

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Old 01-14-2015, 05:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joefromchicago View Post
When there's only a single base-runner affected by the error, and that base-runner scores, you really don't have to reconstruct the entire inning in order to determine if the run is earned or unearned. In your example, the scorer could determine immediately if the run was earned because as soon as the runner crossed home plate, the effect of the error could be calculated as to him (it might still have affected subsequent runners as a "fourth out," but it didn't turn out that way in this instance).
Your point is well made but there are numerous cases where reconstruction would change the determination.
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Old 01-14-2015, 06:50 PM   #12
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Your point is well made but there are numerous cases where reconstruction would change the determination.
IIRC quite a few of the really obvious ones were fixed, but there are certainly still some that aren't correct.
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:45 PM   #13
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IIRC quite a few of the really obvious ones were fixed, but there are certainly still some that aren't correct.
Are you saying that OOTP reconstructs innings? I'm not sure how that is possible.
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Old 01-15-2015, 12:26 AM   #14
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Are you saying that OOTP reconstructs innings?
I believe I am the one who said that.

The game scores runs as earned or unearned the moment the runner crosses the plate. It has always been that way. In the past, the game did not correct (or at least often failed to correct) a run that was initially scored as unearned, but which in fact was earned. Classic example would be a home run that wiped out the effect of a previous error. I believe the game is making those corrections routinely now, apparently by reviewing the log for that inning in some fashion.

The game may still be getting very unusual situations wrong from time to time. However, it has been awhile since I've run into one of those, so it's basically dropped off my radar at this point.
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Old 01-15-2015, 12:49 PM   #15
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The game scores runs as earned or unearned the moment the runner crosses the plate. It has always been that way.
That is not what happens now.

Think of a simpler version. Man on third. Less than two out. Batter is safe on error on an infield hit. Runner scores.

This will NOT show up as an earned run immediately.

If the next player gets a hit, a run will then appear as earned ont he pitcher's record.

OOTP DOES change the status of a run from unearned to earned if the circumstances change during the inning... as it should.

(Note: I am not claiming it always does this perfectly. Just that it does it.)
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Old 01-15-2015, 12:59 PM   #16
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Quote:
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That is not what happens now.

Think of a simpler version. Man on third. Less than two out. Batter is safe on error on an infield hit. Runner scores.

This will NOT show up as an earned run immediately.

If the next player gets a hit, a run will then appear as earned ont he pitcher's record.

OOTP DOES change the status of a run from unearned to earned if the circumstances change during the inning... as it should.

(Note: I am not claiming it always does this perfectly. Just that it does it.)
OOTP will never ever be able to score earned runs perfectly. The reason being is that there are instances where certain factors just cannot be weighed properly by OOTP.

For instance, in the example you list above, if the runner on third breaks on contact, it's an earned run no matter what because the runner scores even if the infielder makes the play. As far as I'm aware, OOTP does not code whether or not that runner goes on contact.
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Old 01-15-2015, 01:22 PM   #17
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OOTP will never ever be able to score earned runs perfectly. The reason being is that there are instances where certain factors just cannot be weighed properly by OOTP.

For instance, in the example you list above, if the runner on third breaks on contact, it's an earned run no matter what because the runner scores even if the infielder makes the play. As far as I'm aware, OOTP does not code whether or not that runner goes on contact.
I suppose that OOTP could, behind the scenes, rerun the play without the error, see whether the runner would have scored and charge an earned run accordingly. But is that the highest and best use of the scarce resource of programming effort? There are enough arbitrary ER calls in real life that one can tolerate them in a game.
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Old 01-15-2015, 01:23 PM   #18
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I suppose that OOTP could, behind the scenes, rerun the play without the error, see whether the runner would have scored and charge an earned run accordingly. But is that the highest and best use of the scarce resource of programming effort? There are enough arbitrary ER calls in real life that one can tolerate them in a game.
I agree completely. I was just using that as an example of how we'll never have a perfect scoring system in OOTP.
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Old 01-15-2015, 02:04 PM   #19
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That is not what happens now.

Think of a simpler version. Man on third. Less than two out. Batter is safe on error on an infield hit. Runner scores.

This will NOT show up as an earned run immediately.
Every time that I've bothered to check the box score at the moment a runner scores, it seems to me the game has recorded it against the pitcher in one way or the other. However, it has been some time since I checked this, so I can't say for sure. I'll have to take a look at this again next time.
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Old 01-15-2015, 03:06 PM   #20
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It definitely can change during the inning now.

Though, as said, that doesn't mean it is always right.
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