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Old 04-19-2019, 11:43 PM   #21
joehart
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And i basically ran with your exact roster sans the mentioned pitchers and outfielders and got absolutely destroyed in bronze. So bad of i couldve been relegated to the entry pool i should've been.
Interesting. I don't want to be rude and call you out on this but there is no way this statement is correct.
I suggest you remove that sentence about losing in bronze.

You traded in 78 Ozzie Smith to replace with Albies?

And traded both catchers with some of the highest catching abilities for Darrel Porter?
Traded in 79 Dan T Murphy/71 Rose for Muncy?

I think you meant to say you had one or two of the players and they did not fit your strategy or you did not
have time to train them in their positions.
Some of them play out of position so you also need to give them time to get to their top defensive stats.

There are top25 teams in the entire PT universe that still use these players. Example: Rocky Point Zorros uses all 3 (both catchers and Smith).


I am trying to offer help and would put these players (or other players you can't find) in the AH for you but not if you suggest that I am giving you
such poor advice that you lose in Bronze.

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Old 04-20-2019, 08:54 AM   #22
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Different very good players have given loads of good advice to this player. I truly do not think he accepts any of or very little of it. The help we offer does not fit his preconceived notion of what he should do it seems. So he ignores it and starts another thread. Just like the Verlander posts in this thread his mind will not release OVR and until he does, he is unable to implement the ideas offered to help him. Your Silver team can compete at the levels that he has attained thus far with any decent pitchers if properly managed as you have shown.

Edit: I mean no harm in my statement and do not mean to offend, just posting the feeling I have after weeks of watching him seemingly ignore the help offered.
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Old 04-20-2019, 11:37 AM   #23
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Interesting. I don't want to be rude and call you out on this but there is no way this statement is correct.
I suggest you remove that sentence about losing in bronze.

You traded in 78 Ozzie Smith to replace with Albies?

And traded both catchers with some of the highest catching abilities for Darrel Porter?
Traded in 79 Dan T Murphy/71 Rose for Muncy?

I think you meant to say you had one or two of the players and they did not fit your strategy or you did not
have time to train them in their positions.
Some of them play out of position so you also need to give them time to get to their top defensive stats.

There are top25 teams in the entire PT universe that still use these players. Example: Rocky Point Zorros uses all 3 (both catchers and Smith).


I am trying to offer help and would put these players (or other players you can't find) in the AH for you but not if you suggest that I am giving you
such poor advice that you lose in Bronze.

It's not poor advice. It simply didn't work for me. I'm quite glad it worked for you, actually. The silver team is quite an accomplishment.



If you want specifics I've used 7 of the players you posted and only two I use regularly anymore because the rest have been downright terrible...FOR ME...
Boone
Pena
Rose
Kell
Pesky
Simmons
Suzuki (although I've never seen a silver suzuki before in the ah so I've had to settle for bronze, in fact I think BOTH Suzuki's I've used were bronze (different cards of same player but both bronze) IIRC).


So...of those posted I still use Kell and Simmons. Rose, Pesky, and Pena were TERRIBLE. I wish I took screenshots when I still had them to prove this but none of them batted .220 in bronze. They had positive WAR (barely) but they weren't moving the needle to get me out of bronze.


As for trading players for Porter and Albies, I don't even know where you would get that from. My team that had the aforementioned players hasn't even been mentioned in this thread until the silver only team was mentioned. Which, again, great job for accomplishing (This may seem sarcastic but I'm serious...great job . The posted players actually played for you, but they didn't for me.


As for the positional thing, I've given them plenty of time (3-5 seasons of positional training. I know Rose and Simmons can play many positions, and I spent almost 3 seasons building them up, only to see them fail miserably when I achieved higher levels (i.e. Gold). I still have the Simmons trained in every infield spot if you want proof I'm not lying. I'll be more than happy to post a screenshot of his defense.


I take the advice I'm given, but one person on this board said it well (sorry can't remember who). It's not cookie cutter. There are SOME strategies that work well across the board, but not all strategies will work for all play styles. (paraphrasing)


What many people seem to find as argumentative in here is my frustration and misunderstanding of concepts because they are way different than normal. What works in PT doesn't work in offline or vice versa. I've played OOTP for it has to be close to a decade now, way back when they started Eastside Hockey Manager. I've been playing PT for about 2 months.


I'm not resisting advice. I'm spending TONS of PP and time implementing said advice and watching some of it work, and some of it fail (again, FOR ME). That's not to say it's bad advice at all. I mean, people can only advise about their experience. It would be ridiculous for me to assume they know my play style.


This isn't merely to the quoted post, but please have patience with me. I don't understand how I construct a team, and a few times saw a team with almost my EXACT SAME ROSTER in the same league, and somehow I'm on the bottom of the standings and they're on the top.
People will now come in and tear that comment apart. They'll say I'm exaggerating, or lying. At the time it happened I didn't take a screenshot so believe me or not. It happened.


I get there's variance in baseball...heck, that's why I love it so much, but there are certain things that should stay consistent. And it kills ones resolve to see a team (I won't say identical, but they probably had 75% to 80% of the exact roster I had, and they were top dog and I was so bad I would have been relegated. That confuses me. If I was .500 that season I would have said "eh, win some lose some", but it's hard for someone with a logical mind to see that and not think something is wrong with the system versus my way of doing things.


My apologies for the ridiculously long post, but it's frustrating when people don't believe you because you don't take 7,000,000 screenshots. I play the game for fun (mostly), not to prove myself to others. Heck, I never even used screenshots until I started playing PT so I could seek help in here. For the most part you guys have been great, regardless of whether you think I'm lying or not.
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Old 04-20-2019, 11:56 AM   #24
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Different very good players have given loads of good advice to this player. I truly do not think he accepts any of or very little of it. The help we offer does not fit his preconceived notion of what he should do it seems. So he ignores it and starts another thread. Just like the Verlander posts in this thread his mind will not release OVR and until he does, he is unable to implement the ideas offered to help him. Your Silver team can compete at the levels that he has attained thus far with any decent pitchers if properly managed as you have shown.

Edit: I mean no harm in my statement and do not mean to offend, just posting the feeling I have after weeks of watching him seemingly ignore the help offered.

All I take from this post because I want to believe you mean no harm is the word "seemingly". That's the word that should be focused on. I spend so much damn time trying the things suggested in here and having it fail my wife will comment "if it gets you so damn mad why do you still play the game?" from hearing my frustration level.


I'm tired of proving myself to internet people. Believe me or don't believe me. I will continue to post, and ask questions, and BE MYSELF. I'm inquisitive. I like to seek knowledge and wisdom. I'll ask questions, post screenshots (if I have them or have the ability to take them), receive advice (hopefully), implement it, and if I encounter trials along the way I'll get frustrated (I'm sorry I'm human), but I'll also experience joy and gratitude at having some of that advice work, and I'll express my gratitude for the advice.


A small sidenote to thinking I ignore advice. A decent amount of the advice is "get this player or that one". Have you guys seen the AH recently? I know you have. There's a thread about how bad it's gotten. It's not as simple as "go get ozzie smith". In my entire two months+ of playing PT I have NEVER seen Ozzie Smith on the AH. Not once, and I check the AH about 5 or 6x throughout the day (I work from home). So unless he comes from a pack it won't happen. If that is somehow me ignoring advice, then yup, I ignore it all the time.



Another person (I believe in my Verlander thread) said get Maddux. I want to believe they simply don't understand how incredibly difficult that is. He first has to become available. Then he has to be affordable. He also has to be affordable and available at a time when I just happen to have that much PP just stashed away.


Again, I'm happy for the advice, and am quite appreciative people have taken time out of their days to help. Heck, if I ever see a question I can answer I want to pay that thankfulness forward. But please never assume I ignore advice. In fact I'm pretty sure I have attempted to implement all the advice I've been given in here if it's within my budget. I'm frustrated and experience emotions. We're all human.

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Old 04-20-2019, 04:35 PM   #25
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We all want to be helpful. The people trying to help you understand the market is terrible. That does not change the advice that we are trying to help you with. There is nothing we can do about that bad market either. But we cannot wish up some new advice that will make you better, just because the AH is so bad. High movement pitchers are at a premium, even in PT 20. That is why I told you a couple ways to try to mitigate the loss of movement.The people that have been trying to help have all won multiple Perfect Team Championships at Perfect Level. An OVR 85 pitcher with 80 movement and decent control will out pitch players like Verlander more often than not. Defense helps your pitchers tremendously. Many defensive players have 70ish contact and 60ish eye. These players get on base. Some of them are fast. Our friend Joe wins many games with a walk, a stolen base and a single. Do that a couple of times with a stout defense and win a game a 2-1 or 3-2 instead of losing those games. Use those little things. Platoon, platoon, platoon. Use your strategy sliders diligently both globally and individually.

It is easier to build a team in PT 20 if you have upgraded or can upgrade. You need a ton more of money here in 19 now.

Good luck and have fun!
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Old 04-20-2019, 04:57 PM   #26
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I'm by no means expecting some suddenly new formula to be conjured. I understand everyone is doing the most they can and I am very appreciative . I was more reacting to when people start saying I'm not listening. I'm listening, but I don't control the market and sometimes a good piece of advice is either out of my price range or just not an option due to supply. I have literally trashed my whole team and I'm starting over. Verlander and Gibson are on sale and hopefully they'll net me 45k to work with. Verlander already has a bid of 14.5k, so that's a start.


I'm even going to reset my park to 1.0 until I see what my new team structure is. In the meantime I am using the trash time while I wait to be relegated to train up the Simmons I just got in as many positions as possible. I had been using Luis Aparicio as a poor man's Simmons, realizing Simmons is a much better hitter. Aparicio worked great defensively but never had better than a 83 OPS+. So I have now trashed Aparicio on all 3 of my teams.

Here's how different they look. I hope no one sees my team and thinks I'm intentionally tanking. I'm already eliminated and might as well get my players training in defensive positions so they can help me more in silver when I'm relegated...again.


Thank you for your observations, kind sir. I continue to look forward to your council. Maybe one day I'll be able to return the favor somehow.

Let me ask this question about resource allotment...what's the consensus on investing a large lump sum in the early stages? Is it better to invest all of the money into one player who I know I won't get rid of up until diamond or higher? Or get several lower-tier players to make my overall team better, knowing that I'll still have to reinvest the money later on in the larger name players anyways?
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Old 04-20-2019, 05:57 PM   #27
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You have to do what works for you and I will not tell you how to spend your points. No matter which way you go, you may not be happy with the results. Some people believe in a cornerstone player to build around. In '19 I drew a Perfect Gehrig right off the bat. I sold for 175k if memory serves me and I built the base of my team. But I caution you, the AH was full then and most people were still looking at OVR and stuff for pitchers. I got very good movement pitchers much cheaper then. I still recommend building a team around pitching and defense, but that is me. There are different ways to start building but you lose if you start over again and again with different plans. If what you want is not there do not buy something else just to buy something hoping for success, Stick with your plan and be patient.
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Old 04-20-2019, 07:52 PM   #28
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You have to do what works for you and I will not tell you how to spend your points. No matter which way you go, you may not be happy with the results. Some people believe in a cornerstone player to build around. In '19 I drew a Perfect Gehrig right off the bat. I sold for 175k if memory serves me and I built the base of my team. But I caution you, the AH was full then and most people were still looking at OVR and stuff for pitchers. I got very good movement pitchers much cheaper then. I still recommend building a team around pitching and defense, but that is me. There are different ways to start building but you lose if you start over again and again with different plans. If what you want is not there do not buy something else just to buy something hoping for success, Stick with your plan and be patient.

I will do my best. My biggest problem is that I haven't found a plan that works yet. So I've had to tear down my concept several times. I will finally figure it out and absolutely annihilate bronze. Then that team will promote and be dead last in silver, get relegated or just barely NOT get relegated, and I'll blow that concept up for some adjustments which then do well in silver. I then get to gold and get SMASHED. And that's where I am currently. I've easily bought, sold, and bought again the same players many times. Largely because it's what's available, but also because that player might not work in my first plan, but then they have a better shot of working in my new concept. I wish there was a way to just stay in silver, which feels like a good fit for me, while I tinker with concepts. The problem there is when I tinker I lose, and get relegated. If I don't tinker I have a chance of making it to gold to get destroyed. So I can never plan on my concept for gold while in silver, but by the time I make it to gold my concept sucks for gold and I have to tear down which inevitably gets relegated.


Phew...it's a never-ending cycle...seemingly.
Like, is it a completely stupid idea to consider possibly having a choice of being relegated or not? Perhaps I can tell my team is last but my concept is solid and only needs a small ballpark tweak or something of the sort. If there was a way to choose to not get relegated I could work on the concept for a season or two, then if I was still last I would say I need to be relegated. I know it's probably a terrible idea, but it feels right for me. Silver is a good competitive level for me for now. However, I'm afraid to try my concept for gold because I might get relegated, and then gold s 2 seasons away instead of one. I apologize if I am making no sense, but I feel like a ping pong ball constantly going up and down up and down.

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Old 04-20-2019, 09:42 PM   #29
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Once you have a solid plan the level will not matter, only upgrades and fine tunes as you can.
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Old 04-21-2019, 05:36 AM   #30
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It's not poor advice. It simply didn't work for me. I'm quite glad it worked for you, actually. The silver team is quite an accomplishment.

Boone
Pena
Rose
When you invest into Catchers, skip the whole idea of high batting average. It is just too expensive to find great offensive catchers that
don't hurt you with their defense.
Several of us here in the forums use catchers that help your pitchers with
great solid defense instead of trying to rely on them to get you great offensive stats.

As mentioned, a base stealing team can often run on high batting average catchers and players like Eddie Collins (85) or Ozzie Smith (78) can get you a lot of steals without getting caught too often.
There are other players if you want to go down that route: Tim Raines Sr. (82) or Tony Gwynn Sr (87).

Unless you have the Diamond Ichiro, I would avoid Ichiro as a starter in the higher leagues.
The silver card is a good cheap replacement late in the game with this great defensive stats: 107 LF, 71 CF, 104 RF
You can also use someone like Kevin McReynolds in a similar role.
His defense is even better (123 LF, 96 CF, 107 RF).

Again, don't look for these players to generate your offense but instead use them to win the game with great defense once you are ahead (Global strategy setting).

Example: You find your day-to-day LHB and use a RHB with great defensive stats to come in late in the game and then start when you face Left-handed pitchers.
This allowed me to use a batter like Enos Slaughter (59 LF defense) on the silver team. They are in the playoffs in Perfect league with essentially the same roster that I showed you.

If you focus too much on .AVG, you may miss players that give you a good OBP but only in platoon situations. This of course is not as easy as it sounds.

If you have great pitching, you can go with 6 pitchers in your bullpen.
However, with lesser pitchers, you usually end up with all yellow/red stamina for your bullpen pitchers. So you may need to invest into a 7th player to avoid sending out tired pitchers taking away from a platoon opportunity.
So essentially, the "already good" teams get better while lesser teams can't fully take advantage. Not ideal for your situation.


If you use Excel, have you considered exporting the stats of all players in your league and keep adding them every week?
I started out with little knowledge about the players and teams but by exporting 100,000+ players, I gave myself a way to search for players that fit my criteria while also looking at real PT results.
At the same time, I also started tracking pitchers to see how they perform vs. the suggested FIP data that is discussed in some of the other available spreadsheets/lists.

>As for the positional thing, I've given them plenty of time (3-5 seasons of >positional training. I know Rose and Simmons can play many positions,

Wrong Rose. Get the 71 card which is more of a 1B/DH option.


Stay patient with your teams. Know what you want to do and stick with it for a few seasons and improve on your goals.
Kushiel makes a good comment......stick with your plan and let it play out for a while making improvements.


As mentioned above, I prefer a 1.022 LHB / slightly less than 1.000 RHB park with reduced home runs (anywhere between .900 to .940 across my teams) while having higher numbers for 2B and 3B.

I always knew from the beginning that I would not be able to buy all the various Perfect cards with amazing hitter stats.
Instead, I focused on contact, speed/stealing, pitching, and great defense. I wanted to win with just diamond and below teams.

My two boys (9/10) fell in love with the game and a while back created an extra account with low investment and took that team to Perfect last week (won Diamond championship).

Same approach (high contact, speed/stealing, great defense) with less than perfect pitching (besides 100 DeGrom which they pulled half way through last season).
No Ozzie Smith or other super rare player.






Of course, this team is not going to win Perfect league. But it stayed 10+ wins away from teams getting relegated and there is plenty of areas that can be improved.
I don't know what the kids have in mind next but I am sure they will continue without investing money and try to fight off relegation while trying to move up spot by spot.

If you plan on spending money, I would go with PT20 as it has more features and the OOTP team is planning to add more interesting features (mobile support, card collection, other competitions).
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Old 04-21-2019, 06:29 AM   #31
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Kushiel may enjoy this stat....

This pretty basic team actually was 2nd in AVG (most doubles and triples in the league) in PT417 and 9th in Defense.
Of course the team lacks in other areas.....but this is what the kids like the most...making small adjustments and letting it play out over a season or two.

Personally, I would have cashed in on the diamond and perfect cards but this is not up to me.
I don't even see a real DH on the team....the kids used Red Schoendienst which makes no sense.

Edit: Nevermind, Schoendienst is the platoon partner for Eddy Collins Sr. since he has 82 Contact/100 AvoidKs against LHPs.
He played some DH against RHPs which must be a mistake or some trial by the kids.

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Old 04-21-2019, 08:38 AM   #32
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The kids have learned much from their Dad but it seems they are also using the boldness of youth to try some things that we look over. I love that they do little things on their own while also using the basic tenets for winning strategy that you taught them.
I continue to wish them well in their endeavor. They are the one team that I hope beats me while they and I know that I would never roll over for them.
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Old 04-21-2019, 01:06 PM   #33
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It took them a while to get past the colors and ratings and look deeper but now that they understand the numbers, they are willing to try different things.

The hardest part for them is to fully understand all the acronyms and make sense of them.
But it is also interesting how they try to make up their own rating systems with plus and minuses for various areas and then judge players based on that.

They could have used a steam card to add more cash but clearly did not go that route.
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Old 04-21-2019, 06:58 PM   #34
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With regard to movement and your idea of compensating for a lack of it with superb stuff and control, is Rod Beck an example of that? I'm using him as a closer against righties, and he's got 103 STU, 89 CON against RHB, but only 30 MOV. Is that okay or is he still going to get creamed? If not I have Jeffress as an alternative, he's got 93 STU, 71 MOV, but 41 CON?
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Old 04-21-2019, 07:46 PM   #35
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50-70 MOV is low in my mindset.30 Movement is very bad. There is little I can think of that will help it as you move up. 50-70 MOV with high CON, ground ball pitchers with elite IF defense can be competitive. Everything has to compliment everything else to work. Strategy, Park Factors, style of play have to meld. I would use Jeffress. This is only my opinion. Others may differ.
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Old 04-21-2019, 08:56 PM   #36
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I'm pretty excited. With the money that I got from selling Justin Verlander and Bob Gibson I bought a Ralph kiner, Mark McGwire, a lower-level Justin Verlander with better movement, and some packs. Out of the packs I got a perfect sale. I'm pretty excited about that as now my team is much more solid on the pitching front and my right handed Power Team looks to be very solid after relegating back to Silver I should not be there long.
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:39 PM   #37
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I hope your luck continues.
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:40 PM   #38
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With regard to movement and your idea of compensating for a lack of it with superb stuff and control, is Rod Beck an example of that? I'm using him as a closer against righties, and he's got 103 STU, 89 CON against RHB, but only 30 MOV. Is that okay or is he still going to get creamed? If not I have Jeffress as an alternative, he's got 93 STU, 71 MOV, but 41 CON?
For long term, consider Blake Treinen. As a live card, he is cheaper than the historical ones.

Also, Sean Doolittle is often in the top for Saves at the Gold/Diamond level. He is terrific against LHBs but manages to strike out enough of the RHBs to get the needed Save.
He should be available and a very cheap option and easily changed to a left handed specialist once you move up or see him run into trouble.
As a specialist, he is among the best.
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:54 PM   #39
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For long term, consider Blake Treinen. As a live card, he is cheaper than the historical ones.

Also, Sean Doolittle is often in the top for Saves at the Gold/Diamond level. He is terrific against LHBs but manages to strike out enough of the RHBs to get the needed Save.
He should be available and a very cheap option and easily changed to a left handed specialist once you move up or see him run into trouble.
As a specialist, he is among the best.

I considered Treinen, but decided on getting 2 gold relievers (Familia and Stammen) along with Kiner for the same price as one Treinen. But he's on my wish list if and when I ever have 15k to blow.
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Old 04-21-2019, 10:04 PM   #40
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I'm pretty excited. With the money that I got from selling Justin Verlander and Bob Gibson I bought a Ralph kiner, Mark McGwire, a lower-level Justin Verlander with better movement, and some packs. Out of the packs I got a perfect sale. I'm pretty excited about that as now my team is much more solid on the pitching front and my right handed Power Team looks to be very solid after relegating back to Silver I should not be there long.
Awesome congrats. The 100 Sale card will help you a lot.

So your strategy will be to focus on power and increase your ballpark to more HRs?

In a defense oriented park, Kiner and McGwire will hurt you more than they will help you. They will both strike out a ton (150-200 times in the top leagues) while getting you ~100-120 hits.

I have seen the 87 McGuire have a few good years but for every good year at the top level (OPS+ of ~110), you have some years with OPS+ in the 90s.

While there are some whale teams that do well with contact and power, I found it too difficult to get HRs at the top levels. Too many pitchers with elite movement numbers so it is easier to go for contact+speed+defense.
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