Historical Sim Question

Hrycaj · 12-15-2017, 02:31 PM

I have a question for historical simmers out there. I have been exploring different ways to play OOTP just to switch things up. My question is about the guys who do the simulations with historical transactions. Is the point to simply replay the season exactly as it went down and see how close the simulation engine does?

If yes, then I understand it. However, I have read a bunch of threads that have been like I'm taking over "X" team with historical transactions on to see if I can do better. Aren't all transactions based on a certain moment in time? Meaning some teams simply wouldn't make these historic deals in a different situation, which the replay could produce. So I guess I'm just curious as to the why? Thanks for any feedback.

Chief Wahoo · 12-15-2017, 03:52 PM

I do it this way. i actually play out all the games, and use my own lineups. I may think it's better to bat Kenny Lofton 3rd instead of leadoff and see if my choices can improve the teams record versus the real life Indians.

Now if i wanted to play on the GM level i wouldn't play that way but i like playing on the level of a manager.

BaseballMan · 12-15-2017, 04:00 PM

I think it depends on how strict you want your historical replay. Yes some trades may depend on team needs but you could also have an owner that just wants the highest paid players no matter what. Not sure where i saw that before.
Even though you know the what the transactions are
I just look at it as you have to deal with what you are given. I'm sure other teams may have wanted Verlander but the Astros got him. So those other teams had to take a different player. Its your job to fit the player in..
Because you could also say why have injuries on since that might keep a player from playing all of his games and that might affect your lineup.

I think most people just want to see what they would do with the 64 phillies or 69 cubs. They will probably use the same players. Its more a case of where and when. Unless they use historical lineups.

David Watts · 12-15-2017, 04:13 PM

You only have access to the players the real life manager had during the season. It's up to you how you use them. Sure, you may benefit by playing a certain player more than real life, but the OOTP make bad feature often limits the effectiveness of doing so. If I take over the 1975 Tigers, I basically play the entire season without a real 1B. 76, I can see what would have happened if Fidrych was the opening day starter. Or course, the AI is going to be making these same type decisions for the other teams as well, so everything isn't a sure bet to finish exactly according to history.

Jerry Helper · 12-15-2017, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

I think it depends on how strict you want your historical replay. Yes some trades may depend on team needs but you could also have an owner that just wants the highest paid players no matter what. Not sure where i saw that before.
Even though you know the what the transactions are
I just look at as you have to deal with what you are given. I'm sure other teams may have wanted Verlander but the Astros got him. So those other teams had to take a different player. Its your job to fit the player in..
Because you could also say why have injuries on since that might keep a player from playing all of his games and that might affect your lineup.

I think most people just want to see what they would do with the 64 phillies or 69 cubs. They will probably use the same players. Its more a case of where and when. Unless they use historical lineups.

Exactly. I like taking over a squad and getting to run a club during that era. I think it's fun to rewrite history

thehef · 12-15-2017, 05:44 PM

In addition to the ways to play described by others above, I also like to try "what if" scenarios like...

- What if the mid-60's Dodgers didn't see Koufax retire, and didn't trade away key players such as Wills, T Davis, Perranoski, Roseboro? (I'm planning on pairing this one with the Dodgers reacquiring Frank Howard. Will see how a Roseboro, Parker, Lefebvre, Wills, someone-at-3rd, T Davis, W Davis, Howard - plus a staff anchored by Koufax, Drysdale, Osteen, Sutton, Singer, Perranoski and Regan - does in the late 60's.)

- What if the 1975 Dodgers not only returned the core of their 102-win '74 team, but didn't have injuries to key players such as John, Buckner, Russell, Ferguson, and Marshall? Would they have given the Big Red Machine a run for their money?

- What if the BoSox had kept Fred Lynn, Rick Burleson, Cecil Cooper, and maybe a few others from their 1975 Series team? (And what if Jim Rice had been healthy for the '75 World Series - assuming I can get them there in the first place?)

The above scenarios require editing of players and/or undoing certain transactions, but the bulk of historical txns are necessary in order to execute the what if...

I also routinely play with retire according to history off to see what some players do after their RL retirement. As an example, in one of my current sims Andy Carey - who in RL finished his career as a backup at age 30 with the Dodgers in 1962 - was a solid backup on my '63 & '64 Dodgers, and now midway thru the '65 season he's the starter, batting 3rd (for a popgun-at-best offense) and hitting .294 w 7 HR's and 46 RBI's, all of which lead the team... I don't have to play with RL txns in order to do this, but although I want some variations from RL, I still want the flavor of RL in that - for example - Bob Gibson is on StL, Mantle with Yanks, Rose w the Reds, etc...

Jerry Helper · 12-15-2017, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehef

In addition to the ways to play described by others above, I also like to try "what if" scenarios like...

- What if the mid-60's Dodgers didn't see Koufax retire, and didn't trade away key players such as Wills, T Davis, Perranoski, Roseboro? (I'm planning on pairing this one with the Dodgers reacquiring Frank Howard. Will see how a Roseboro, Parker, Lefebvre, Wills, someone-at-3rd, T Davis, W Davis, Howard - plus a staff anchored by Koufax, Drysdale, Osteen, Sutton, Singer, Perranoski and Regan - does in the late 60's.)

- What if the 1975 Dodgers not only returned the core of their 102-win '74 team, but didn't have injuries to key players such as John, Buckner, Russell, Ferguson, and Marshall? Would they have given the Big Red Machine a run for their money?

- What if the BoSox had kept Fred Lynn, Rick Burleson, Cecil Cooper, and maybe a few others from their 1975 Series team? (And what if Jim Rice had been healthy for the '75 World Series - assuming I can get them there in the first place?)

The above scenarios require editing of players and/or undoing certain transactions, but the bulk of historical txns are necessary in order to execute the what if...

I also routinely play with retire according to history off to see what some players do after their RL retirement. As an example, in one of my current sims Andy Carey - who in RL finished his career as a backup at age 30 with the Dodgers in 1962 - was a solid backup on my '63 & '64 Dodgers, and now midway thru the '65 season he's the starter, batting 3rd (for a popgun-at-best offense) and hitting .294 w 7 HR's and 46 RBI's, all of which lead the team... I don't have to play with RL txns in order to do this, but although I want some variations from RL, I still want the flavor of RL in that - for example - Bob Gibson is on StL, Mantle with Yanks, Rose w the Reds, etc...

I'm thinking of starting a sim in the late 1930s and playing through the 40s with no WW2. I'm sure others have done that, it will be interesting to see how it goes!

BaseballMan · 12-15-2017, 10:20 PM

You can only put your historical season in the ballpark. You will never have everything go according to history. For every player hat mirrors real life there will still be those players that just didn't get get those extra 50 hits.
You will still see surprises. I saw Lefty Grove win 5 triple crowns. In another i saw a 53 game hitting streak.

Hrycaj · 12-16-2017, 12:39 AM

I appreciate everybody's feedback. I understand the "what if" angle that I feel you guys are all talking about. That makes total sense to me. Done it, love it. I guess my question is for the select few that want to take over a team, change history, but have historical transactions. I think David Watts alluded to that in his post. He only wants to use players that the team had access to in that season. He isn't going to manually try to improve his team. That is what I took from that. It is an angle I never considered. I was under the impression that if I took a team and did better or worse the historical gm would never make the deal because of what I did in the sim if that makes sense.

BaseballMan · 12-16-2017, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hrycaj

I appreciate everybody's feedback. I understand the "what if" angle that I feel you guys are all talking about. That makes total sense to me. Done it, love it. I guess my question is for the select few that want to take over a team, change history, but have historical transactions. I think David Watts alluded to that in his post. He only wants to use players that the team had access to in that season. He isn't going to manually try to improve his team. That is what I took from that. It is an angle I never considered. I was under the impression that if I took a team and did better or worse the historical gm would never make the deal because of what I did in the sim if that makes sense.

Owner's and GMS don't always do what a manager wants or expects them to do.

scott1964 · 12-16-2017, 11:04 AM

In my play through a few years ago, I had Walter Johnson win over 500 games if I recall, and wasn't always a Senator. Cy Young did not win as many games in real life and the HR king was not Babe Ruth but Ty Cobb.

Jerry Helper · 12-16-2017, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hrycaj

I appreciate everybody's feedback. I understand the "what if" angle that I feel you guys are all talking about. That makes total sense to me. Done it, love it. I guess my question is for the select few that want to take over a team, change history, but have historical transactions. I think David Watts alluded to that in his post. He only wants to use players that the team had access to in that season. He isn't going to manually try to improve his team. That is what I took from that. It is an angle I never considered. I was under the impression that if I took a team and did better or worse the historical gm would never make the deal because of what I did in the sim if that makes sense.

This isn't how i usually play, but i feel like there are two ways you could do this. The less immersive way would be to make yourself commissioner and just fast sim through a decade or two. With historical transactions, it would be interesting to see what stays the same and what changes! Especially for years that had close pennant races. Would the 51 Dodgers be able to hold off the Giants?

The other way more immersive way would be to manage a team. You'd be changing history by tinkering with lineups, but you'd be dealing with the actual players from that team in those seasons. Might be cool to see if you could take over an American league team in the 50s and be able to manage yourself into competition with the Yankees!

Jerry Helper · 12-16-2017, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scott1964

In my play through a few years ago, I had Walter Johnson win over 500 games if I recall, and wasn't always a Senator. Cy Young did not win as many games in real life and the HR king was not Babe Ruth but Ty Cobb.

Seems like Young never hits the 500 win total on anyones sim.

I did a pretty immersive 20s sim awhile back and what was funny was that Ruth was the dominant player by far, but he never hit the 50 home run mark in a year!

BaseballMan · 12-16-2017, 08:09 PM

Cy Young was 293-219 for me at the conclusion of 1900.
I had to stop this league because when turning on automatic expansion the game insists on creating all new teams and folding the existing teams.
It doesn't even release the players. Really really hope this gets fixed.
Automatic expansion should not fold a team from the previous year it should only create the expansion teams for that new year. It doesn't seem like expansion as much as a new league creation.

So i went back to ootp 17 for 19th century play.
Not sure if it would make a big difference in the career outcome.
With ootp 17 i can have automatic expansion with real league format and teams and rookies go to correct teams automatically.

Jerry Helper · 12-16-2017, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Cy Young was 293-219 for me at the conclusion of 1900.
I had to stop this league because when turning on automatic expansion the game insists on creating all new teams and folding the existing teams.
It doesn't even release the players. Really really hope this gets fixed.
Automatic expansion should not fold a team from the previous year it should only create the expansion teams for that new year. It doesn't seem like expansion as much as a new league creation.

So i went back to ootp 17 for 19th century play.
Not sure if it would make a big difference in the career outcome.
With ootp 17 i can have automatic expansion with real league format and teams and rookies go to correct teams automatically.

Agree with this. That feature doesn’t work around the turn of the century, when so many teams came and went

BaseballMan · 12-16-2017, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Helper

Agree with this. That feature doesn’t work around the turn of the century, when so many teams came and went

Funny thing is that it worked in 17.
In 17 it only creates the new expansion teams. I wish the historical database could be easily edited by the average user because everything i do manually could be done automatically.
And all i do is follow a spreadsheet.
Even transactions could be done. You just need to make sure the teams and players are active on that date. You dont need sophisticated 3 way trades. Just keep it simple.

12-15-2017, 02:31 PM	#1
Hrycaj All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,361	Historical Sim Question I have a question for historical simmers out there. I have been exploring different ways to play OOTP just to switch things up. My question is about the guys who do the simulations with historical transactions. Is the point to simply replay the season exactly as it went down and see how close the simulation engine does? If yes, then I understand it. However, I have read a bunch of threads that have been like I'm taking over "X" team with historical transactions on to see if I can do better. Aren't all transactions based on a certain moment in time? Meaning some teams simply wouldn't make these historic deals in a different situation, which the replay could produce. So I guess I'm just curious as to the why? Thanks for any feedback. __________________ Click on my signature to read about the great game of baseball in Normington.

12-15-2017, 03:52 PM	#2
Chief Wahoo Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Moro, IL Posts: 346 Blog Entries: 1	I do it this way. i actually play out all the games, and use my own lineups. I may think it's better to bat Kenny Lofton 3rd instead of leadoff and see if my choices can improve the teams record versus the real life Indians. Now if i wanted to play on the GM level i wouldn't play that way but i like playing on the level of a manager. __________________ Chief Wahoo

12-15-2017, 04:00 PM	#3
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,266	I think it depends on how strict you want your historical replay. Yes some trades may depend on team needs but you could also have an owner that just wants the highest paid players no matter what. Not sure where i saw that before. Even though you know the what the transactions are I just look at it as you have to deal with what you are given. I'm sure other teams may have wanted Verlander but the Astros got him. So those other teams had to take a different player. Its your job to fit the player in.. Because you could also say why have injuries on since that might keep a player from playing all of his games and that might affect your lineup. I think most people just want to see what they would do with the 64 phillies or 69 cubs. They will probably use the same players. Its more a case of where and when. Unless they use historical lineups. Last edited by BaseballMan; 12-15-2017 at 10:09 PM.

12-16-2017, 12:39 AM	#9
Hrycaj All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,361	I appreciate everybody's feedback. I understand the "what if" angle that I feel you guys are all talking about. That makes total sense to me. Done it, love it. I guess my question is for the select few that want to take over a team, change history, but have historical transactions. I think David Watts alluded to that in his post. He only wants to use players that the team had access to in that season. He isn't going to manually try to improve his team. That is what I took from that. It is an angle I never considered. I was under the impression that if I took a team and did better or worse the historical gm would never make the deal because of what I did in the sim if that makes sense. __________________ Click on my signature to read about the great game of baseball in Normington.

12-16-2017, 11:04 AM	#11
scott1964 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denver Posts: 5,561 Blog Entries: 19	In my play through a few years ago, I had Walter Johnson win over 500 games if I recall, and wasn't always a Senator. Cy Young did not win as many games in real life and the HR king was not Babe Ruth but Ty Cobb. __________________ This just feels more like waiting in line at the Department of Motor Vehicles. PETA.....People Eating Tasty Animals.

12-15-2017, 04:13 PM	#4
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 8,848	You only have access to the players the real life manager had during the season. It's up to you how you use them. Sure, you may benefit by playing a certain player more than real life, but the OOTP make bad feature often limits the effectiveness of doing so. If I take over the 1975 Tigers, I basically play the entire season without a real 1B. 76, I can see what would have happened if Fidrych was the opening day starter. Or course, the AI is going to be making these same type decisions for the other teams as well, so everything isn't a sure bet to finish exactly according to history.

12-15-2017, 05:44 PM	#6
thehef Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,838	In addition to the ways to play described by others above, I also like to try "what if" scenarios like... - What if the mid-60's Dodgers didn't see Koufax retire, and didn't trade away key players such as Wills, T Davis, Perranoski, Roseboro? (I'm planning on pairing this one with the Dodgers reacquiring Frank Howard. Will see how a Roseboro, Parker, Lefebvre, Wills, someone-at-3rd, T Davis, W Davis, Howard - plus a staff anchored by Koufax, Drysdale, Osteen, Sutton, Singer, Perranoski and Regan - does in the late 60's.) - What if the 1975 Dodgers not only returned the core of their 102-win '74 team, but didn't have injuries to key players such as John, Buckner, Russell, Ferguson, and Marshall? Would they have given the Big Red Machine a run for their money? - What if the BoSox had kept Fred Lynn, Rick Burleson, Cecil Cooper, and maybe a few others from their 1975 Series team? (And what if Jim Rice had been healthy for the '75 World Series - assuming I can get them there in the first place?) The above scenarios require editing of players and/or undoing certain transactions, but the bulk of historical txns are necessary in order to execute the what if... I also routinely play with retire according to history off to see what some players do after their RL retirement. As an example, in one of my current sims Andy Carey - who in RL finished his career as a backup at age 30 with the Dodgers in 1962 - was a solid backup on my '63 & '64 Dodgers, and now midway thru the '65 season he's the starter, batting 3rd (for a popgun-at-best offense) and hitting .294 w 7 HR's and 46 RBI's, all of which lead the team... I don't have to play with RL txns in order to do this, but although I want some variations from RL, I still want the flavor of RL in that - for example - Bob Gibson is on StL, Mantle with Yanks, Rose w the Reds, etc...

12-15-2017, 10:20 PM	#8
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,266	You can only put your historical season in the ballpark. You will never have everything go according to history. For every player hat mirrors real life there will still be those players that just didn't get get those extra 50 hits. You will still see surprises. I saw Lefty Grove win 5 triple crowns. In another i saw a 53 game hitting streak.

12-16-2017, 08:09 PM	#14
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,266	Cy Young was 293-219 for me at the conclusion of 1900. I had to stop this league because when turning on automatic expansion the game insists on creating all new teams and folding the existing teams. It doesn't even release the players. Really really hope this gets fixed. Automatic expansion should not fold a team from the previous year it should only create the expansion teams for that new year. It doesn't seem like expansion as much as a new league creation. So i went back to ootp 17 for 19th century play. Not sure if it would make a big difference in the career outcome. With ootp 17 i can have automatic expansion with real league format and teams and rookies go to correct teams automatically.