What leads you to stick with a new league or keep creating new ones?

italyprof · 03-31-2019, 10:33 AM

So, I was thinking about David Watts' comment the other day, that when a new version of OOTP comes out, in this case version 20, he wants to commit himself to a league that he will play through for a long time, but finds that he is instead often creating new leagues one after the other before he finds the one to stay with.

David, I hope you don't mind my paraphrasing you here, I think what I wrote here is faithful to the spirit of what you wrote.

I am interested, because, as many of us can attest, David is FAR from the only one who has this experience.

I posted some images of my team in old ballparks from the first OOTP20 random debut league I created, a team I played through about 25 or so games with, and that I have not erased, so it may continue in the future.

But I have created a new one that I like more and am pretty sure (!) is the one that i will play through for a good number of seasons. At least that is the intention.

But why? What is it, what is that intangible element or bunch of elements that lead us to want to stick with a team and league and see where it goes, build a history for it etc. or instead feel vaguely dissatisfied with it and go on to create yet another (and another...)?

In my case it is, I think, two key things, both of them forms of excess:

1) a league, its inaugural draft and the team I build don't have enough players that I find exciting, interesting or that I have some sentimental, or nostalgic interest in.

This is the case with that first league. In a way, that was on purpose: I had the random debut come in at 1914-1964, and I did not start following baseball until 1969, so even Mickey Mantle - and I am a Yankees fan - is a player I have no experiential memory of, indeed he is my older brothers' Yankees in a way. (although I did see Mickey hit a home run off Whitey Ford in an old-timers game in Yankee Stadium in 1976. I was sitting right behind home plate too).

So, I did set the parameters so that I could not mess up the team by drafting my favorite players and then feel the other excess that accounts for why I might leave a league and team:

2) the team is almost entirely a dream team of my favorites.

This one is harder to explain. It carries a sort of unreality to it, I have had a random debut draft of players from say 1901 to 2018, and yet somehow still end up with everyone I like, mostly Yankees and Mets players, from a select few decades at most. It doesn't feel right.

So, I keep trying until there is somehow that right equilibrium, a league that seems to have its own authenticity, BUT with some of my favorites, just enough of them that the team feels like its mine, our team, but not so many that it mocks the idea of random debut or of players from all eras.

So, while not erasing that first league, cause its pretty good and I may go back to it, I decided to try again. I erased two entire leagues and this morning finally got it right.

I set the parameters for 1911-2011. I don't love deadball, though I miss having the great Honus Wagner in the league (can always import him in later seasons, or set a few drafts to 1901-1910 to spice the league up), and I prefer to have the fewest current players possible (not sure why, but that is how I like it).

The starting season is 1947, the historical year is 1978 (I decided the mid-1980s, though I love their mix of different kinds of offense and defense, are too "hot" - high offensive output for me, the 1960s up to 1976 are too "quiet" instead). 3-year recalc with the development engine on. Real stats - since we have had no word on whether neutral stats works again - I will try it sooner or later but not for this league.

I moved a few teams around - put them all in old ballparks - Cleveland in Blues Stadium, Oakland in Candlestick (it's pretty, and we don't have to actually sit there or play there !), Changed the Giants to the Mets and put them in Shea, my Yankees in the Old, original Stadium, moved the Braves to Milwaukee, moved the Tigers to Mobile, Alabama (couldn't Mobile beat any other city hands down in a competition with the big league (and Negro Leagues) talent it has produced? Moved the Browns to Baltimore, renamed the Phillies and put them in the Baker Bowl, renamed the Pirates (I like the name, but not the logo, kind of boring, sorry Pittsburgh fans, I like your team and city just fine), moved the White Sox to SF and put them in Seals Stadium, moved the Senators to KC and put them in the old KC Municipal Stadium, named them the Monarchs in honor of that great old Negro League team and gave them the Royals' logo.

Everybody else is in their historic park - Pittsburgh in Forbes Field - a really lovely view, Reds in Crosley, Cubs in 1970 Wrigley and Red Sox in 1970s Fenway etc.

I am setting it for 162 games, balanced schedule WITH interleague play, even though in real life I don't like ILP that much - because I want to see the teams play and play in those ballparks. Theoretically, in a two-league, 16-team world, if you play 14 games against each of the teams in your league (=98) and 8 games against each team in the other league (=64) you have a 162 game schedule. I don't know that this is the schedule the AI gives us, but I wish we could customize a schedule in that way - x games against each team in such and such a league or division...

here are the standings, below. And then my team with ages listed.

italyprof · 03-31-2019, 10:41 AM

So, I have Don Mattingly who came up in the inaugural draft pool - my favorite player, already 26, with most of his best seasons over. Feels right, even though I will miss his peak years. Graig Nettles, another favorite from those 70s Yankees teams, at third. Hidecki Matsui I always liked, he has a couple of productive seasons left. Grote and Ellis catching, from Mets and Yankees teams of the 1960s, and Mookie Wilson and Gerald Williams who are really on the team as much for sentimental reasons as anything else, players I liked to watch play in the 1980s and 90s respectively for NY clubs.

Otherwise, the only position player I went with as much for sentiment as for their utility is of course Ozzie Smith. How can you not like him?

Ed Figueroa and Dock Ellis pitched for the 1970s Yankees, otherwise, though one or two were briefly Yankees, the rest of the team and staff were chosen for their talents or particular roles they could play. Granted not that many pre-1960s players on my team (a few), but I will set a few of the earliest drafts to 1901-1959 or something to make up for that and force myself to draft players I didn't see play as the league evolves.

I think I am going to like this team and play through its games and let seasons pass. How soon before I get bored? A long time I hope. One problem is that I do enjoy drafting, my favorite part of playing on WhatIfSports.com too, more than the actual league seasons in a way. It is a kind of puzzle to design and construct a team, and I like it, but I also like playing baseball and seeing the teams in action. Let's see how it goes this time.

italyprof · 03-31-2019, 11:19 AM

Opening day in Fenway Park. Not sure why the Green Monster is gray. Must be the souls of Red Sox fans (just kidding !)

.

Anyway, we are down 5-0 in the 6th.

Edster007 · 03-31-2019, 12:28 PM

I do many of the same things for the same reasons. While I miss the guys like Wagner I instituted a 2nd draft every other year where I import players pre 1930 (where I found my sweet spot is).

I think you may be wrong about the 76 Mantle homer in the old timers game it must have been prior-I was there and Mantle didn't homer-he reached on an error popping up to first-Its the only time I saw Mantle bat. 76-80 my dad worked with someone with season tickets in section 7,it was a great time for a kid to go to games. Went to 20+ a year and some playoff and world series games

italyprof · 03-31-2019, 06:14 PM

Yeah my dad got tickets from work to go too.

You think it wasn't the 1976 game? I have to think. It could have been 1975 maybe. But not after 1976 I am nearly sure I never went to another Old Timers' game after I was 16. I will try to find out more and get back to you. Thanks.

Edster007 · 03-31-2019, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by italyprof

Yeah my dad got tickets from work to go too.

You think it wasn't the 1976 game? I have to think. It could have been 1975 maybe. But not after 1976 I am nearly sure I never went to another Old Timers' game after I was 16. I will try to find out more and get back to you. Thanks.

Just did a google search and came up with this

https://youtu.be/I9fNcMLaW_A

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

italyprof · 04-01-2019, 02:18 AM

Yes, 1973, it must have been ! I am pretty sure that the man in the white shirt who gets up behind home plate to the right of Mantle during the second pitch to put on his jacket was my father and I am sitting right next to him, 13 years old.

Thanks.

Now, everyone, let's hear your comments on why you do or don't stick with a league you create !

03-31-2019, 10:33 AM	#1
italyprof All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 991	What leads you to stick with a new league or keep creating new ones? So, I was thinking about David Watts' comment the other day, that when a new version of OOTP comes out, in this case version 20, he wants to commit himself to a league that he will play through for a long time, but finds that he is instead often creating new leagues one after the other before he finds the one to stay with. David, I hope you don't mind my paraphrasing you here, I think what I wrote here is faithful to the spirit of what you wrote. I am interested, because, as many of us can attest, David is FAR from the only one who has this experience. I posted some images of my team in old ballparks from the first OOTP20 random debut league I created, a team I played through about 25 or so games with, and that I have not erased, so it may continue in the future. But I have created a new one that I like more and am pretty sure (!) is the one that i will play through for a good number of seasons. At least that is the intention. But why? What is it, what is that intangible element or bunch of elements that lead us to want to stick with a team and league and see where it goes, build a history for it etc. or instead feel vaguely dissatisfied with it and go on to create yet another (and another...)? In my case it is, I think, two key things, both of them forms of excess: 1) a league, its inaugural draft and the team I build don't have enough players that I find exciting, interesting or that I have some sentimental, or nostalgic interest in. This is the case with that first league. In a way, that was on purpose: I had the random debut come in at 1914-1964, and I did not start following baseball until 1969, so even Mickey Mantle - and I am a Yankees fan - is a player I have no experiential memory of, indeed he is my older brothers' Yankees in a way. (although I did see Mickey hit a home run off Whitey Ford in an old-timers game in Yankee Stadium in 1976. I was sitting right behind home plate too). So, I did set the parameters so that I could not mess up the team by drafting my favorite players and then feel the other excess that accounts for why I might leave a league and team: 2) the team is almost entirely a dream team of my favorites. This one is harder to explain. It carries a sort of unreality to it, I have had a random debut draft of players from say 1901 to 2018, and yet somehow still end up with everyone I like, mostly Yankees and Mets players, from a select few decades at most. It doesn't feel right. So, I keep trying until there is somehow that right equilibrium, a league that seems to have its own authenticity, BUT with some of my favorites, just enough of them that the team feels like its mine, our team, but not so many that it mocks the idea of random debut or of players from all eras. So, while not erasing that first league, cause its pretty good and I may go back to it, I decided to try again. I erased two entire leagues and this morning finally got it right. I set the parameters for 1911-2011. I don't love deadball, though I miss having the great Honus Wagner in the league (can always import him in later seasons, or set a few drafts to 1901-1910 to spice the league up), and I prefer to have the fewest current players possible (not sure why, but that is how I like it). The starting season is 1947, the historical year is 1978 (I decided the mid-1980s, though I love their mix of different kinds of offense and defense, are too "hot" - high offensive output for me, the 1960s up to 1976 are too "quiet" instead). 3-year recalc with the development engine on. Real stats - since we have had no word on whether neutral stats works again - I will try it sooner or later but not for this league. I moved a few teams around - put them all in old ballparks - Cleveland in Blues Stadium, Oakland in Candlestick (it's pretty, and we don't have to actually sit there or play there !), Changed the Giants to the Mets and put them in Shea, my Yankees in the Old, original Stadium, moved the Braves to Milwaukee, moved the Tigers to Mobile, Alabama (couldn't Mobile beat any other city hands down in a competition with the big league (and Negro Leagues) talent it has produced? Moved the Browns to Baltimore, renamed the Phillies and put them in the Baker Bowl, renamed the Pirates (I like the name, but not the logo, kind of boring, sorry Pittsburgh fans, I like your team and city just fine), moved the White Sox to SF and put them in Seals Stadium, moved the Senators to KC and put them in the old KC Municipal Stadium, named them the Monarchs in honor of that great old Negro League team and gave them the Royals' logo. Everybody else is in their historic park - Pittsburgh in Forbes Field - a really lovely view, Reds in Crosley, Cubs in 1970 Wrigley and Red Sox in 1970s Fenway etc. I am setting it for 162 games, balanced schedule WITH interleague play, even though in real life I don't like ILP that much - because I want to see the teams play and play in those ballparks. Theoretically, in a two-league, 16-team world, if you play 14 games against each of the teams in your league (=98) and 8 games against each team in the other league (=64) you have a 162 game schedule. I don't know that this is the schedule the AI gives us, but I wish we could customize a schedule in that way - x games against each team in such and such a league or division... here are the standings, below. And then my team with ages listed.

03-31-2019, 10:41 AM	#2
italyprof All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 991	So, I have Don Mattingly who came up in the inaugural draft pool - my favorite player, already 26, with most of his best seasons over. Feels right, even though I will miss his peak years. Graig Nettles, another favorite from those 70s Yankees teams, at third. Hidecki Matsui I always liked, he has a couple of productive seasons left. Grote and Ellis catching, from Mets and Yankees teams of the 1960s, and Mookie Wilson and Gerald Williams who are really on the team as much for sentimental reasons as anything else, players I liked to watch play in the 1980s and 90s respectively for NY clubs. Otherwise, the only position player I went with as much for sentiment as for their utility is of course Ozzie Smith. How can you not like him? Ed Figueroa and Dock Ellis pitched for the 1970s Yankees, otherwise, though one or two were briefly Yankees, the rest of the team and staff were chosen for their talents or particular roles they could play. Granted not that many pre-1960s players on my team (a few), but I will set a few of the earliest drafts to 1901-1959 or something to make up for that and force myself to draft players I didn't see play as the league evolves. I think I am going to like this team and play through its games and let seasons pass. How soon before I get bored? A long time I hope. One problem is that I do enjoy drafting, my favorite part of playing on WhatIfSports.com too, more than the actual league seasons in a way. It is a kind of puzzle to design and construct a team, and I like it, but I also like playing baseball and seeing the teams in action. Let's see how it goes this time. Attached Images

03-31-2019, 11:19 AM	#3
italyprof All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 991	Opening day in Fenway Park. Not sure why the Green Monster is gray. Must be the souls of Red Sox fans (just kidding !) . Anyway, we are down 5-0 in the 6th. Attached Images

03-31-2019, 12:28 PM	#4
Edster007 All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,678	What leads you to stick with a new league or keep creating new ones? I do many of the same things for the same reasons. While I miss the guys like Wagner I instituted a 2nd draft every other year where I import players pre 1930 (where I found my sweet spot is). I think you may be wrong about the 76 Mantle homer in the old timers game it must have been prior-I was there and Mantle didn't homer-he reached on an error popping up to first-Its the only time I saw Mantle bat. 76-80 my dad worked with someone with season tickets in section 7,it was a great time for a kid to go to games. Went to 20+ a year and some playoff and world series games Last edited by Edster007; 03-31-2019 at 12:37 PM. Reason: added

03-31-2019, 06:14 PM	#5
italyprof All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 991	Yeah my dad got tickets from work to go too. You think it wasn't the 1976 game? I have to think. It could have been 1975 maybe. But not after 1976 I am nearly sure I never went to another Old Timers' game after I was 16. I will try to find out more and get back to you. Thanks.

04-01-2019, 02:18 AM	#7
italyprof All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 991	Yes, 1973, it must have been ! I am pretty sure that the man in the white shirt who gets up behind home plate to the right of Mantle during the second pitch to put on his jacket was my father and I am sitting right next to him, 13 years old. Thanks. Now, everyone, let's hear your comments on why you do or don't stick with a league you create !