Should there be fewer Perfect Leagues?

dishnet34 · 06-10-2019, 09:25 AM

So, there has been a discussion in some parts of the PT-verse (mostly on the Discord) about whether or not there are too many Perfect Leagues out there. I think it's a discussion to have, and so that's why I'm posing the question here, so more diverse opinions can be shared on the topic.

I believe last season, there were somewhere between 20 and 24 Perfect Leagues, if I recall correctly, and there are a total of 25 this season. The general vibe some people tend to get from Perfect Leagues is that they are for the "best of the best," and they think that because of how promotion/relegation is being utilized at the moment (4 up, 2 down across all leagues, especially from Diamond to Perfect) that Perfect Leagues are being too diluted, with way too many teams in perfect leagues with losing records staying up every year.

I know at the beginning that there were plenty of promotions to fill out leagues, and when Perfect Leagues started to be filled for the first time, with only a few leagues, it felt perfect to some people.

So, what say you guys? Are there too many Perfect Leagues out there? What else could be added to this conversation?

CrazyWR · 06-10-2019, 09:29 AM

What they need to do is increase churn all the way up and down the pyramid. The amount of leagues is okay I guess, I could see reducing it (and adding another level in between diamond and perfect), but the gap between diamond and perfect is huge. I just got relegated from perfect 2 seasons ago, then dominated my diamond league and didn't lose a single playoff game, so now I'm headed back. I made no changes to my team between seasons.

MarkGracesSlumpBuster · 06-10-2019, 09:30 AM

Way too many leagues IMO. More teams need to be relegated and only diamond champions should be promoted, not both league winners. Perfect Leagues should be the elite, and right now it’s the elite, good and kinda good. Having fewer perfect leagues will make diamond more competitive. perfect more competitive and the leagues more fun to be apart of.

MarkGracesSlumpBuster · 06-10-2019, 09:34 AM

Right now, it’s not like most perfect leagues have 6-8 dominant teams in them and the rest are decent or good.. it’s usually 25-28 similarly matched teams, and then 1-2’big time teams... so either another league above perfect or fewer perfect leagues makes sense

HRBaker · 06-10-2019, 09:37 AM

Yes.The fact that winners in Perfect sometimes have 30+ game leads by the end of the season is proof of this.

joehart · 06-10-2019, 10:27 AM

I think the argument can also go both ways. With more leagues, you have a better chance of ending up in a weaker one and win the top prize.

I am always cautious about adding another league. If you are the unhappy mid level spending team that ends up as team #30, you will be back here complaining that the new setup ruined your game.
A temporary league with just the perfect league champions? Maybe. Will it solve it all, not so sure.

Personally, I don’t have a big preference and try to find a way to enjoy it all. Not sure if there is a panacea to solve it all. And lots of the arguments over the last year sounded like snake oil.

If we double the number of demotions.... will this ensure that there will be fewer people giving up and forcing a demotion by removing their top players?
Last season, I noticed a mid level perfect team giving up. They were middle of the pack but did not like that competition so they replaced all their players with bronze level players.

I fear there are lots of players that have a psychological need to be in the top or they hate the game. I am not sure if you can solve it for them. They don’t find enjoyment in relegation competition, being a team in the middle of the pack, ....

Charlatan · 06-10-2019, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joehart

I fear there are lots of players that have a psychological need to be in the top or they hate the game. I am not sure if you can solve it for them. They don’t find enjoyment in relegation competition, being a team in the middle of the pack, ....

I was in the whale Perfect League one season. My team won 51 games and finished 75 games behind the division winner. I didn't mix it up to try to get relegated but I don't think I could fault someone who does that in the same situation.

It's decidedly not fun to be obliterated time and time again. The solution for that? I dunno, maybe more relegations would solve the problem. Maybe more leagues. It's definitely a thing, though.

HRBaker · 06-10-2019, 10:40 AM

There's a number of issues going on here that I think could be improved...

One is the way upper levels are populated early in the process. In the rush to get all levels filled, a lot of teams that aren't ready get pushed up and mixed with those that spend a lot of money to get there quicker. Then it takes forever for that mixed talent to find its own home.

I also strongly believe teams should be promoted based on win% - not playoff results. There are endless discussions here and a majority opinion that a couple 7 game series don't prove anything - and rightfully so. Math doesn't lie.

To improve both of these points, I think teams should be promoted based on win% AND promotions should follow "normal progression" which I would define as 4 up and 4 down at each level (or maybe 6 up and 6 down the first 10 seasons of the year). This would slow down the progressions AND insure better teams got to the top.

I think a lot of us (that aren't whales) would be happy to find a level we could compete for the playoffs regularly and not necessarily be promoted. As it stands now - if we manage a team successfully - we get pushed up to a "Peter's Principle" scenario where there's no place to go but down - and trying to do so could get you banned...

It almost as if the rules of the game are "progress until you fail - then your locked into failing forever" ... not a good goal.

bailey · 06-10-2019, 10:52 AM

Sticking to the topic of number of perfect leagues:

I think 16 perfect leagues is a good number, with 30-32 teams per league ( no short leagues, but slightly larger ones when the numbers don't work out). Then, a "Tournament of Champions" the following week (4 round best of 7 single elimination) when tournaments become a thing.

Orcin · 06-10-2019, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dishnet34

So, there has been a discussion in some parts of the PT-verse (mostly on the Discord) about whether or not there are too many Perfect Leagues out there. I think it's a discussion to have, and so that's why I'm posing the question here, so more diverse opinions can be shared on the topic.

You said you wanted diverse opinions. I think the game is fine as it is. There are 25 Perfect Leagues comprising approximately 750 teams. That is only 7.5% of the teams in the universe, which seems like a reasonable percentage for the top of the pyramid.

pappyzan · 06-10-2019, 11:14 AM

1. Cap Perfect Leagues at 26 leagues.
2. Create one single top-tier Perfect League Winners league.
3. Each season, promote the 26 PL winners to PLW.
4. To get the PLW off the ground (initial season), promote 4 other teams from PL to PLW to get a total of 30.
5. Next season, keep only the 4 LCS participants in PLW, relegate everyone else (26 teams) to PL. Also, promote the current 26 PL winners to PLW (if you win your PL, you're promoted to PLW).
6. Rinse and repeat.

Lots of bits and pieces to fit in for anything remotely like this to work properly. Would need to find a solution for the number of Diamonds promoting to PL, for teams relegating from PL to Diamond, and for other promotions/relegations for the other leagues. And a million other little issues/problems that aren't issues/problems today but would be.

Not a developer, but I'm sure it's not as easy as some of you think.

pappyzan · 06-10-2019, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bailey

Sticking to the topic of number of perfect leagues:

I think 16 perfect leagues is a good number, with 30-32 teams per league ( no short leagues, but slightly larger ones when the numbers don't work out). Then, a "Tournament of Champions" the following week (4 round best of 7 single elimination) when tournaments become a thing.

Yep, a tournament would be a good idea.

nickwatic · 06-10-2019, 11:24 AM

The gap between diamond and perfect is massive and many people cannot properly adjust unless they want to become a whale

allenciox · 06-10-2019, 11:26 AM

I have been tracking this for several seasons now.. it is actually pretty easy, the only value that needs to be added to this table is number of entry league teams (it was 182 last week, based on rolling trend predicting 160 this week):

Code:

	2030							
level	teams	leagues	act_lg	promote	relegat	net	newtms	%gain
perfect	742	24.73	25	0	50	66	808	8.9%
diamond	868	28.93	29	116	58	48	916	5.5%
gold	1282	42.73	43	172	86	48	1330	3.7%
silver	1852	61.73	62	248	124	50	1902	2.7%
bronze	2496	83.20	84	336	168	16	2512	0.6%
iron	2954	98.47	99	396	0	-68	2886	-2.3%
total:	10194	339.8	342	160			10354

Perfect is the fastest growing level, and based on current extrapolations and 4 up, 2 down continuing, in 2036, the number of teams in perfect league will exceed the number of diamond teams.

I have two teams at perfect level, and I can see arguments on both sides. Over time, the "average" team at perfect should decrease as perfect gets diluted more and more.

lightningbolts35 · 06-10-2019, 11:28 AM

I believe there needs to be a league between Diamond and Perfect. As someone else said, there is a huge difference between the two. Perfect should be the best of the best... Also, for the whales. Right now, I've been in Perfect for three years. Twice, my league was loaded with whales (6-8 whale teams). Those teams had winning records and all but about two other teams had losing records. The other time I was in a league with only two whale teams and half the teams had winning records and divisions and wild cards were hotly contested.

Now, don't get me wrong, I have nothing against whale teams. They paid a good price to have their team. But for most people who are not willing to spend a lot of money, there should be a league for them that is competitive. People shouldn't feel they have to spend a ton of money or hope for luck of the draw to be in a competitive league.

So what's the answer to the problem... I'm not totally sure. To me, the top four teams by record should move up to the next level up to diamond league. From there, the next two leagues in my scenario should be League champions only move up. Regulated teams should be the bottom four teams by record. I would also suggest that teams that purposely play to lose should be reported and not regulated to a lower league. Not that any of this matters, it's just my opinion...

HRBaker · 06-10-2019, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bailey

Sticking to the topic of number of perfect leagues:

I WAS sticking to the topic.

Who is promoted (and why) and the number of teams at each level ARE NOT exclusive - they are directly related.

Reducing the number of Perfect Leagues won't solve the problem by itself, because weaker teams will still be promoted into them because they won 4 of 7 games.

How do you support (or ignore) the fact that we demote teams based on worst record - but promote teams based on who wins 4 of 7 games???

Why do you think wild card teams get promoted so often?

Orcin · 06-10-2019, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightningbolts35

People shouldn't feel they have to spend a ton of money or hope for luck of the draw to be in a competitive league.

It's a pay-to-win game designed to make a profit for its developer. The whole purpose of the game is to entice people to spend money.

OMGPuppies · 06-10-2019, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HRBaker

There's a number of issues going on here that I think could be improved...

One is the way upper levels are populated early in the process. In the rush to get all levels filled, a lot of teams that aren't ready get pushed up and mixed with those that spend a lot of money to get there quicker. Then it takes forever for that mixed talent to find its own home.

I also strongly believe teams should be promoted based on win% - not playoff results. There are endless discussions here and a majority opinion that a couple 7 game series don't prove anything - and rightfully so. Math doesn't lie.

To improve both of these points, I think teams should be promoted based on win% AND promotions should follow "normal progression" which I would define as 4 up and 4 down at each level (or maybe 6 up and 6 down the first 10 seasons of the year). This would slow down the progressions AND insure better teams got to the top.

I think a lot of us (that aren't whales) would be happy to find a level we could compete for the playoffs regularly and not necessarily be promoted. As it stands now - if we manage a team successfully - we get pushed up to a "Peter's Principle" scenario where there's no place to go but down - and trying to do so could get you banned...

It almost as if the rules of the game are "progress until you fail - then your locked into failing forever" ... not a good goal.

Case in point is my Kaneohe Mokes team that had a miracle run to sneak into the playoffs on the last day of the season then upset a couple of whales to win the league. Clearly not ready for Perfect.

Morug · 06-10-2019, 12:22 PM

Its kinda strange to be in perfect league without winning a championship. Only the winner in Diamond must advance in my opinion. I lost in final of diamond but i dont think my team is ready for perfect league. I'll try to win anyway in perfect, but I dont see my team in the playoff soon in perfect.

MarkGracesSlumpBuster · 06-10-2019, 12:47 PM

Having private leagues could also solve some of the issue. Have it be a league or tournament that requires a password to enter the league.. if the league doesn’t reach X amount of teams, the teams go to random leagues.

View Poll Results: Are There Too Many Perfect Leagues?
Yes	31	57.41%
No	23	42.59%
Voters: 54. You may not vote on this poll

06-10-2019, 09:25 AM	#1
dishnet34 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,165	Should there be fewer Perfect Leagues? So, there has been a discussion in some parts of the PT-verse (mostly on the Discord) about whether or not there are too many Perfect Leagues out there. I think it's a discussion to have, and so that's why I'm posing the question here, so more diverse opinions can be shared on the topic. I believe last season, there were somewhere between 20 and 24 Perfect Leagues, if I recall correctly, and there are a total of 25 this season. The general vibe some people tend to get from Perfect Leagues is that they are for the "best of the best," and they think that because of how promotion/relegation is being utilized at the moment (4 up, 2 down across all leagues, especially from Diamond to Perfect) that Perfect Leagues are being too diluted, with way too many teams in perfect leagues with losing records staying up every year. I know at the beginning that there were plenty of promotions to fill out leagues, and when Perfect Leagues started to be filled for the first time, with only a few leagues, it felt perfect to some people. So, what say you guys? Are there too many Perfect Leagues out there? What else could be added to this conversation? __________________ OOTP's Official Perfect Team Hype Man / host of This Week In Perfect Team, TWIPT Friday Showdown and Perfect Team Weekly Prep "Find a way to be alone in a baseball stadium at sunrise, when the only sound you hear are about nine birds that got lost, and found themselves in a stadium, and they’re chirping across the grandstand trying to figure out where the f*** they ended up." -Dan Besbris Last edited by dishnet34; 06-10-2019 at 09:29 AM.

06-10-2019, 09:37 AM	#5
HRBaker Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,088	Yes.The fact that winners in Perfect sometimes have 30+ game leads by the end of the season is proof of this. __________________

06-10-2019, 10:27 AM	#6
joehart All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 1,131	I think the argument can also go both ways. With more leagues, you have a better chance of ending up in a weaker one and win the top prize. I am always cautious about adding another league. If you are the unhappy mid level spending team that ends up as team #30, you will be back here complaining that the new setup ruined your game. A temporary league with just the perfect league champions? Maybe. Will it solve it all, not so sure. Personally, I don’t have a big preference and try to find a way to enjoy it all. Not sure if there is a panacea to solve it all. And lots of the arguments over the last year sounded like snake oil. If we double the number of demotions.... will this ensure that there will be fewer people giving up and forcing a demotion by removing their top players? Last season, I noticed a mid level perfect team giving up. They were middle of the pack but did not like that competition so they replaced all their players with bronze level players. I fear there are lots of players that have a psychological need to be in the top or they hate the game. I am not sure if you can solve it for them. They don’t find enjoyment in relegation competition, being a team in the middle of the pack, .... __________________

06-10-2019, 10:40 AM	#8
HRBaker Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,088	There's a number of issues going on here that I think could be improved... One is the way upper levels are populated early in the process. In the rush to get all levels filled, a lot of teams that aren't ready get pushed up and mixed with those that spend a lot of money to get there quicker. Then it takes forever for that mixed talent to find its own home. I also strongly believe teams should be promoted based on win% - not playoff results. There are endless discussions here and a majority opinion that a couple 7 game series don't prove anything - and rightfully so. Math doesn't lie. To improve both of these points, I think teams should be promoted based on win% AND promotions should follow "normal progression" which I would define as 4 up and 4 down at each level (or maybe 6 up and 6 down the first 10 seasons of the year). This would slow down the progressions AND insure better teams got to the top. I think a lot of us (that aren't whales) would be happy to find a level we could compete for the playoffs regularly and not necessarily be promoted. As it stands now - if we manage a team successfully - we get pushed up to a "Peter's Principle" scenario where there's no place to go but down - and trying to do so could get you banned... It almost as if the rules of the game are "progress until you fail - then your locked into failing forever" ... not a good goal. __________________

06-10-2019, 09:29 AM	#2
CrazyWR All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 549	What they need to do is increase churn all the way up and down the pyramid. The amount of leagues is okay I guess, I could see reducing it (and adding another level in between diamond and perfect), but the gap between diamond and perfect is huge. I just got relegated from perfect 2 seasons ago, then dominated my diamond league and didn't lose a single playoff game, so now I'm headed back. I made no changes to my team between seasons.

06-10-2019, 09:30 AM	#3
MarkGracesSlumpBuster Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 49	Way too many leagues IMO. More teams need to be relegated and only diamond champions should be promoted, not both league winners. Perfect Leagues should be the elite, and right now it’s the elite, good and kinda good. Having fewer perfect leagues will make diamond more competitive. perfect more competitive and the leagues more fun to be apart of.

06-10-2019, 09:34 AM	#4
MarkGracesSlumpBuster Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 49	Right now, it’s not like most perfect leagues have 6-8 dominant teams in them and the rest are decent or good.. it’s usually 25-28 similarly matched teams, and then 1-2’big time teams... so either another league above perfect or fewer perfect leagues makes sense

06-10-2019, 10:52 AM	#9
bailey Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,127	Sticking to the topic of number of perfect leagues: I think 16 perfect leagues is a good number, with 30-32 teams per league ( no short leagues, but slightly larger ones when the numbers don't work out). Then, a "Tournament of Champions" the following week (4 round best of 7 single elimination) when tournaments become a thing. __________________

06-10-2019, 11:14 AM	#11
pappyzan All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 637	1. Cap Perfect Leagues at 26 leagues. 2. Create one single top-tier Perfect League Winners league. 3. Each season, promote the 26 PL winners to PLW. 4. To get the PLW off the ground (initial season), promote 4 other teams from PL to PLW to get a total of 30. 5. Next season, keep only the 4 LCS participants in PLW, relegate everyone else (26 teams) to PL. Also, promote the current 26 PL winners to PLW (if you win your PL, you're promoted to PLW). 6. Rinse and repeat. Lots of bits and pieces to fit in for anything remotely like this to work properly. Would need to find a solution for the number of Diamonds promoting to PL, for teams relegating from PL to Diamond, and for other promotions/relegations for the other leagues. And a million other little issues/problems that aren't issues/problems today but would be. Not a developer, but I'm sure it's not as easy as some of you think. __________________ Last edited by pappyzan; 06-10-2019 at 11:19 AM.

06-10-2019, 11:24 AM	#13
nickwatic Minors (Double A) Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 195 Blog Entries: 1	The gap between diamond and perfect is massive and many people cannot properly adjust unless they want to become a whale __________________

06-10-2019, 11:26 AM	#14
allenciox All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 735	Here is the distribution of teams this season... I have been tracking this for several seasons now.. it is actually pretty easy, the only value that needs to be added to this table is number of entry league teams (it was 182 last week, based on rolling trend predicting 160 this week): Code: 2030 level teams leagues act_lg promote relegat net newtms %gain perfect 742 24.73 25 0 50 66 808 8.9% diamond 868 28.93 29 116 58 48 916 5.5% gold 1282 42.73 43 172 86 48 1330 3.7% silver 1852 61.73 62 248 124 50 1902 2.7% bronze 2496 83.20 84 336 168 16 2512 0.6% iron 2954 98.47 99 396 0 -68 2886 -2.3% total: 10194 339.8 342 160 10354 Perfect is the fastest growing level, and based on current extrapolations and 4 up, 2 down continuing, in 2036, the number of teams in perfect league will exceed the number of diamond teams. I have two teams at perfect level, and I can see arguments on both sides. Over time, the "average" team at perfect should decrease as perfect gets diluted more and more. __________________ Last edited by allenciox; 06-10-2019 at 11:29 AM.

06-10-2019, 11:28 AM	#15
lightningbolts35 Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 57	I believe there needs to be a league between Diamond and Perfect. As someone else said, there is a huge difference between the two. Perfect should be the best of the best... Also, for the whales. Right now, I've been in Perfect for three years. Twice, my league was loaded with whales (6-8 whale teams). Those teams had winning records and all but about two other teams had losing records. The other time I was in a league with only two whale teams and half the teams had winning records and divisions and wild cards were hotly contested. Now, don't get me wrong, I have nothing against whale teams. They paid a good price to have their team. But for most people who are not willing to spend a lot of money, there should be a league for them that is competitive. People shouldn't feel they have to spend a ton of money or hope for luck of the draw to be in a competitive league. So what's the answer to the problem... I'm not totally sure. To me, the top four teams by record should move up to the next level up to diamond league. From there, the next two leagues in my scenario should be League champions only move up. Regulated teams should be the bottom four teams by record. I would also suggest that teams that purposely play to lose should be reported and not regulated to a lower league. Not that any of this matters, it's just my opinion... __________________

06-10-2019, 12:22 PM	#19
Morug Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 308	Its kinda strange to be in perfect league without winning a championship. Only the winner in Diamond must advance in my opinion. I lost in final of diamond but i dont think my team is ready for perfect league. I'll try to win anyway in perfect, but I dont see my team in the playoff soon in perfect. __________________ F2P Expos F2P pack only F2P AH

06-10-2019, 12:47 PM	#20
MarkGracesSlumpBuster Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 49	Having private leagues could also solve some of the issue. Have it be a league or tournament that requires a password to enter the league.. if the league doesn’t reach X amount of teams, the teams go to random leagues.