For those not wishing to use feeders

PSUColonel · 02-07-2014, 05:31 AM

Is there a possibility of getting much more detailed statistics for college and high school players? To me, this seems like a better way of doing things since you can have more schools represented, and then just automatically generate a "history of stats" for each player, each year.

pjh5165 · 02-07-2014, 07:13 AM

I'd also love to have more than 1 (or on occasion 2) years of stats to look at for non-feeder draft prospects. Would help out a lot for those of us who play stats-only without feeders.

SirMichaelJordan · 02-07-2014, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjh5165

I'd also love to have more than 1 (or on occasion 2) years of stats to look at for non-feeder draft prospects. Would help out a lot for those of us who play stats-only without feeders.

3 years would be great also lol

pjh5165 · 02-07-2014, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

3 years would be great also lol

Oh I agree. I was saying that right now we only get 1 or 2 years of stats.

r0nster · 02-07-2014, 01:22 PM

why not get 4 years and perhaps a few red shirts stats???

le receveur · 02-07-2014, 01:55 PM

quick question for those how you without feeder. Do you want 3 years created at draft time, or be able to look at the guy's stats along the way, without the extra CPU of having a feeder league?

pjh5165 · 02-07-2014, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by le receveur

quick question for those how you without feeder. Do you want 3 years created at draft time, or be able to look at the guy's stats along the way, without the extra CPU of having a feeder league?

3-4 years created at draft time would be good enough for me.

PSUColonel · 02-07-2014, 06:08 PM

I was always wanted expanded stats. In other words, why not just allow generated players to function the same way feeders do, where players accumulate stats annually, and graduate from high school to college etc...? It is easier than setting up feeder leagues, and you can still track the payers throughout their high school or college careers?

Bluenoser · 02-07-2014, 07:09 PM

Not knocking the idea/suggestion, but must point this out.

Most of us wanted draft classes with stats for a long time. Markus added feeders so we could have draft classes with stats.

Now we have the feeders we so dearly wanted, and now people don't want them. I'm guessing because it makes league file large and slow.

End of the day, feeders were introduced so you could have stats in your draft class.

If we add this, then it pretty much defeats the purpose of feeders.

PSUColonel · 02-07-2014, 07:46 PM

yes, I think it would be better in leu of feeders. Draft eligible player generation should be deeply expanded upon, rather than having feeders.

Stinson · 02-07-2014, 11:20 PM

All I know is that I recently found out about the need for feeders when playing stats-only, and it was an absolute pain to set-up; I didn't enjoy any part of setting up feeder leagues, especially considering the minimal, but necessary, gain from doing it.

rudel.dietrich · 02-07-2014, 11:50 PM

I don't dislike feeders because of the extra processing time. I dislike them because they are still a half baked feature that as the seasons progress end up damaging the league by adding too many or too few good players.
The amount of effort and micro managing needed from year to year makes them a feature that does not have enough reward for the amount of effort needed.

Fyrestorm3 · 02-08-2014, 02:19 AM

Really? I use feeders in most of my leagues, and I've never encountered a problem. Just set them up and let them run. Maybe I lucked out, but I've never seen a talent imbalance result from them.

Ktulu · 02-08-2014, 02:51 AM

Some of my thoughts on feeders and the minors and stuff...

First I think the general goal is to create a nice progression from high school, to college, to rookie ball, and on up, with players playing against their peers and producing relevant statistics. If there are areas where real life differs from this goal I think we should lean towards gameplay rather than realism.

The best pre-draft prospects should be good to great players at the teenage level, generally they should put up the best numbers at their level. There needs to be some correlation between stats and future success. Otherwise what's the point?
Most players should enter feeder leagues at the youngest age possible, after all the goal is to accumulate stats. The created age ranges should be set automatically based on the age settings for the league roster rules. If the feeder league is set to 17-19 the game should just create players within that range, no need for the additional setting, it just creates confusion. Even though both settings serve a different purpose the distinction is something that belongs in the advanced > super advanced settings section (where a lot of stuff could go).
Draft classes should be reasonably deep with potential ML talent. Nothing kills the fun of a draft like having no ML talent past the middle of the 2nd round.
The minors should consist of players who are age appropriate to their level. Age ranges should be split between the number of minor league levels, so that players play against their peers and in theory produce relevant statistics.
If a player is not good enough to make the cut at the next level he should retire or, if available, sign into an independent league appropriate for his skill level.

Second here are, IMO, some of the major obstacles or issues with the way the game currently handles things

Players "graduate" at specific ages, which creates rigid draft pools where all the players are the exact same age. If you want a range of ages you have to create multiple feeder leagues with differing graduating ages
The amateur draft settings should be on the same setup page as player origin settings
There are 3 different places where you can set the player origins. At the ML level there's "default player origin" and "amateur draft pool origin". In addition there's the setting within each feeder league. This could be streamlined with no loss in functionality. "Amateur draft pool" is redundant or at the very least an advanced > super advanced setting. Just simply use the default player origin settings. Feeder leagues should default to simply using the parent league's settings with the option there for deeper customization.
If draft pick negotiation is on some thought needs to be put into it's affect on draft class sizes due to un-signed players returning to the draft.
Was players moving from high school to college ever added to the game?
Stats need to be more relevant/logical. It's frustrating to see all your newly drafted hitters struggling to put up a .500 OPS at rookie ball.
Why, at the feeder level, are there so many settings and modifiers on the strategy & more tab? There is no need for most of it.
Some thought should be placed into the timeline of a season. How the amateur draft date and season schedule settings of feeders are related is too easy to overlook when setting things up.

The most common question on the boards is usually how many players/teams do I need?

It would be nice if the game could somehow provide an estimated number of players based on all current settings including international amateur's etc.
It isn't easy to guess how many teams you need because the answer isn't as simple as 1 team creates X number of players. The players produced per team varies based on the number of players on the team who are at the graduating level. If a league has only 18 and 19 year olds then roughly half the players on each team would be at graduating age. However if you have a league of 17, 18, 19 and 20 year olds it's likely that only a quarter would be at the graduating age.

Bluenoser · 02-08-2014, 07:12 AM

Ktulu - just wondering if you had seen this - http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...gue-guide.html

Cryomaniac · 02-08-2014, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by le receveur

quick question for those how you without feeder. Do you want 3 years created at draft time, or be able to look at the guy's stats along the way, without the extra CPU of having a feeder league?

The latter would be cool but would be an arse to code I would think.

chucksabr · 02-08-2014, 09:09 AM

I was thinking about creating a feeder league a few decades down the road, but instead of prepping the players for a draft, which my league does not have, I'd like to create junior teams for each team. Not minor league teams, but junior teams, in that they would be developmental teams tied to a specific parent club.

Ideally, a junior team would be a U21 team populated with players 14 to 20, prepping players for the big club. The roster would include both prospects and reserve players. The team would not act like a minor league club in that players would get sent up and down with options like they do with a minor league club, but would be purely developmental. Once a player reaches minimum age for my major league, he'd be eligible to be moved to the big club if he is good enough, or keep playing until age 20, and once he turns 21, he either make the big club, gets released in a free agent pool, or quits ball.

Does any know whether I could use a feeder league in this way? Or would I have to create a minor league club? My concern with the latter is that the game will treat it like an American minor league club with the same rostering rules, which I don't want.

Cryomaniac · 02-08-2014, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chucksabr

I was thinking about creating a feeder league a few decades down the road, but instead of prepping the players for a draft, which my league does not have, I'd like to create junior teams for each team. Not minor league teams, but junior teams, in that they would be developmental teams tied to a specific parent club.

Ideally, a junior team would be a U21 team populated with players 14 to 20, prepping players for the big club. The roster would include both prospects and reserve players. The team would not act like a minor league club in that players would get sent up and down with options like they do with a minor league club, but would be purely developmental. Once a player reaches minimum age for my major league, he'd be eligible to be moved to the big club if he is good enough, or keep playing until age 20, and once he turns 21, he either make the big club, gets released in a free agent pool, or quits ball.

Does any know whether I could use a feeder league in this way? Or would I have to create a minor league club? My concern with the latter is that the game will treat it like an American minor league club with the same rostering rules, which I don't want.

Don't think you can do that, but it would be cool if you could.

le receveur · 02-08-2014, 12:08 PM

some great ideas, and I totally think you are right that there should be some form of default set up. but a couple I am not sure I understand

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ktulu

Draft classes should be reasonably deep with potential ML talent. Nothing kills the fun of a draft like having no ML talent past the middle of the 2nd round.

Players "graduate" at specific ages, which creates rigid draft pools where all the players are the exact same age. If you want a range of ages you have to create multiple feeder leagues with differing graduating ages

First one: i actually think the feeder does pretty close to real life. the main difference i see is the draft in OOTP where signability is not really considered by AI, so compared to RL not that many guys drop to lower rounds. but i don't think this is a feeder problem. and my team currently has 4 guys drafted after round 5 on the 40-man- considering the lack of signability drops, this seems reasonable compare to real life (my league is low in foreign imports)

Graduate at specific age, happens in real life also. they only reason MLB has different age is because they have multiple feeders also. I want to see stats of HS playing against HS to be able to analyse the results. if we had all of them combined, i would be afraid the HS would not even play, since the college guys would be way more advanced, so i would have no idea who i'm drafting

SirMichaelJordan · 02-08-2014, 12:34 PM

Simple reason I like no feeders is that fact that I get a lot of diversity in where players are drafted from. I get guys from lower divisions and Jr Colleges along with the high school and Division 1 schools. If I used feeders then I wouldn't get nowhere near that mix unless I created a boatload of feeder leagues which would create an unbalance in the game if I am only running a few leagues in the universe. I actually like what BTS is doing with the non playable college leagues that will include these low level colleges. Same with FHM and the older EHM and of course FM which you can make those low leagues playable If you wanted.

02-07-2014, 05:31 AM	#1
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 12,990 Blog Entries: 37	For those not wishing to use feeders Is there a possibility of getting much more detailed statistics for college and high school players? To me, this seems like a better way of doing things since you can have more schools represented, and then just automatically generate a "history of stats" for each player, each year.

02-07-2014, 07:09 PM	#9
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 13,682	Not knocking the idea/suggestion, but must point this out. Most of us wanted draft classes with stats for a long time. Markus added feeders so we could have draft classes with stats. Now we have the feeders we so dearly wanted, and now people don't want them. I'm guessing because it makes league file large and slow. End of the day, feeders were introduced so you could have stats in your draft class. If we add this, then it pretty much defeats the purpose of feeders. Last edited by Bluenoser; 02-07-2014 at 07:23 PM.

02-07-2014, 11:20 PM	#11
Stinson Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2009 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 256	All I know is that I recently found out about the need for feeders when playing stats-only, and it was an absolute pain to set-up; I didn't enjoy any part of setting up feeder leagues, especially considering the minimal, but necessary, gain from doing it. Last edited by Stinson; 02-07-2014 at 11:25 PM.

02-08-2014, 02:51 AM	#14
Ktulu Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: BC Posts: 4,463	Some of my thoughts on feeders and the minors and stuff... First I think the general goal is to create a nice progression from high school, to college, to rookie ball, and on up, with players playing against their peers and producing relevant statistics. If there are areas where real life differs from this goal I think we should lean towards gameplay rather than realism. The best pre-draft prospects should be good to great players at the teenage level, generally they should put up the best numbers at their level. There needs to be some correlation between stats and future success. Otherwise what's the point? Most players should enter feeder leagues at the youngest age possible, after all the goal is to accumulate stats. The created age ranges should be set automatically based on the age settings for the league roster rules. If the feeder league is set to 17-19 the game should just create players within that range, no need for the additional setting, it just creates confusion. Even though both settings serve a different purpose the distinction is something that belongs in the advanced > super advanced settings section (where a lot of stuff could go). Draft classes should be reasonably deep with potential ML talent. Nothing kills the fun of a draft like having no ML talent past the middle of the 2nd round. The minors should consist of players who are age appropriate to their level. Age ranges should be split between the number of minor league levels, so that players play against their peers and in theory produce relevant statistics. If a player is not good enough to make the cut at the next level he should retire or, if available, sign into an independent league appropriate for his skill level. Second here are, IMO, some of the major obstacles or issues with the way the game currently handles things Players "graduate" at specific ages, which creates rigid draft pools where all the players are the exact same age. If you want a range of ages you have to create multiple feeder leagues with differing graduating ages The amateur draft settings should be on the same setup page as player origin settings There are 3 different places where you can set the player origins. At the ML level there's "default player origin" and "amateur draft pool origin". In addition there's the setting within each feeder league. This could be streamlined with no loss in functionality. "Amateur draft pool" is redundant or at the very least an advanced > super advanced setting. Just simply use the default player origin settings. Feeder leagues should default to simply using the parent league's settings with the option there for deeper customization. If draft pick negotiation is on some thought needs to be put into it's affect on draft class sizes due to un-signed players returning to the draft. Was players moving from high school to college ever added to the game? Stats need to be more relevant/logical. It's frustrating to see all your newly drafted hitters struggling to put up a .500 OPS at rookie ball. Why, at the feeder level, are there so many settings and modifiers on the strategy & more tab? There is no need for most of it. Some thought should be placed into the timeline of a season. How the amateur draft date and season schedule settings of feeders are related is too easy to overlook when setting things up. The most common question on the boards is usually how many players/teams do I need? It would be nice if the game could somehow provide an estimated number of players based on all current settings including international amateur's etc. It isn't easy to guess how many teams you need because the answer isn't as simple as 1 team creates X number of players. The players produced per team varies based on the number of players on the team who are at the graduating level. If a league has only 18 and 19 year olds then roughly half the players on each team would be at graduating age. However if you have a league of 17, 18, 19 and 20 year olds it's likely that only a quarter would be at the graduating age. __________________ "The ice is getting even more thinner, my friend!"

02-08-2014, 09:09 AM	#17
chucksabr Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: In the canyons of your mind Posts: 3,172	I was thinking about creating a feeder league a few decades down the road, but instead of prepping the players for a draft, which my league does not have, I'd like to create junior teams for each team. Not minor league teams, but junior teams, in that they would be developmental teams tied to a specific parent club. Ideally, a junior team would be a U21 team populated with players 14 to 20, prepping players for the big club. The roster would include both prospects and reserve players. The team would not act like a minor league club in that players would get sent up and down with options like they do with a minor league club, but would be purely developmental. Once a player reaches minimum age for my major league, he'd be eligible to be moved to the big club if he is good enough, or keep playing until age 20, and once he turns 21, he either make the big club, gets released in a free agent pool, or quits ball. Does any know whether I could use a feeder league in this way? Or would I have to create a minor league club? My concern with the latter is that the game will treat it like an American minor league club with the same rostering rules, which I don't want. __________________ The (English) Baseball League (est. 1888): A History The 1932 Season is Underway Dynasty Mission \| Creation Story \| Subscribe 1888 1889 1890 1891 1892 1893 1894 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 1912 1913 1914 (Great War Hiatus) 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 The OOTP Interview about the Baseball League

02-07-2014, 07:13 AM	#2
pjh5165 Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 410	I'd also love to have more than 1 (or on occasion 2) years of stats to look at for non-feeder draft prospects. Would help out a lot for those of us who play stats-only without feeders.

02-07-2014, 01:22 PM	#5
r0nster Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,002	why not get 4 years and perhaps a few red shirts stats???

02-07-2014, 01:55 PM	#6
le receveur All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: canada Posts: 1,736	quick question for those how you without feeder. Do you want 3 years created at draft time, or be able to look at the guy's stats along the way, without the extra CPU of having a feeder league?

02-07-2014, 06:08 PM	#8
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 12,990 Blog Entries: 37	I was always wanted expanded stats. In other words, why not just allow generated players to function the same way feeders do, where players accumulate stats annually, and graduate from high school to college etc...? It is easier than setting up feeder leagues, and you can still track the payers throughout their high school or college careers?

02-07-2014, 07:46 PM	#10
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 12,990 Blog Entries: 37	yes, I think it would be better in leu of feeders. Draft eligible player generation should be deeply expanded upon, rather than having feeders.

02-07-2014, 11:50 PM	#12
rudel.dietrich Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Zürich, Switzerland Posts: 8,608 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	I don't dislike feeders because of the extra processing time. I dislike them because they are still a half baked feature that as the seasons progress end up damaging the league by adding too many or too few good players. The amount of effort and micro managing needed from year to year makes them a feature that does not have enough reward for the amount of effort needed.

02-08-2014, 02:19 AM	#13
Fyrestorm3 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Tampa Bay, Massachusetts Posts: 2,928	Really? I use feeders in most of my leagues, and I've never encountered a problem. Just set them up and let them run. Maybe I lucked out, but I've never seen a talent imbalance result from them.

02-08-2014, 07:12 AM	#15
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 13,682	Ktulu - just wondering if you had seen this - http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...gue-guide.html

02-08-2014, 12:34 PM	#20
SirMichaelJordan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 2,628	For those not wishing to use feeders Simple reason I like no feeders is that fact that I get a lot of diversity in where players are drafted from. I get guys from lower divisions and Jr Colleges along with the high school and Division 1 schools. If I used feeders then I wouldn't get nowhere near that mix unless I created a boatload of feeder leagues which would create an unbalance in the game if I am only running a few leagues in the universe. I actually like what BTS is doing with the non playable college leagues that will include these low level colleges. Same with FHM and the older EHM and of course FM which you can make those low leagues playable If you wanted. Last edited by SirMichaelJordan; 02-08-2014 at 12:37 PM.