Advice on 'tanking', please.

[Hertston]

OK, my current situation is that I have a team in Perfect, that has a self-imposed restriction to pre-1950 cards more or less since I started. It's about as 'middling' as you can get, little chance of relegation, little chance of winning and little chance of acquiring the Perfect monster-price cards needed to improve. Everything is tweaked as far as I can tweak it and I am now, well, bored frankly. So, I want to switch the team to another theme based around players I already have, and I have in mind 'historical legends' only. Now, I can do this, just, based on the cards I have but the team will inevitably be a lot less competitive as high platinums in the other historic categories are replaced with silver and bronze cards.

My question is thus.. would this move be regarded as 'tanking'? I fully expect to drop a level or three, and would hope to rise back up as I trade cards, and hopefully pick up PP and the odd title on the way, but that isn't the purpose of the exercise. I just want a team that's fun to play again.

[HRBaker]

Well.... Sorta.... Kinda... Hell I don't know.


What you're proposing is a subjective justification of losing on purpose. Some here will say yes (and I can probably name them) and some will say no (and I can name them too) - and NOBODY knows what the Devs think.


My best suggestion to you is give it a try and if the Devs contact you to rap your knuckles with a ruler, apologize, and put your best players back on the field.


Unfortunately, your not going to get a clear answer, and will probably get some flack for starting a new post about tanking.

[dkgo]

And here we go again...

Theme teams are fine. Do what you want. No one cares. The people abusing the system know exactly what they are doing and it isn't this.

[Hertston]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

What you're proposing is a subjective justification of losing on purpose.

Not really. I have no desire to lose, I just think becoming a lot less competitive, at least initially, is inevitable.

Unfortunately, your not going to get a clear answer, and will probably get some flack for starting a new post about tanking.

Indeed. Anyway, thanks for your answer. If everyone else just ignores the thread it will no doubt drift away shortly to trouble them no more.

[Orcin]

If you are trying to lose, it is tanking. If you are leaving all your good cards on the sidelines to get demoted a few levels and then... surprise, I was just kidding about that theme thing... then it is tanking.

[Lemandria]

I have a feeling this will be a 'no good answer' thread, like so many others.

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by Hertston

Not really. I have no desire to lose, I just think becoming a lot less competitive, at least initially, is inevitable.

Here's why this discussion goes on forever.


The TOS is more-or-less a legal document.The section that involves "tanking" says...


{{(c) Cheat, deliberately lose, trade wins or Perfect Points, "feed" wins or Perfect Points from one account to another via the auction house or any other method, or otherwise fail to make a good-faith effort to play the game in a fashion intended to win via fair gameplay according to the intended operation of the game.}}


Although it has been said that conversion to "theme teams" is OK, the process to convert to a theme team isn't done when a team is in a Bronze League - it's done when a team is usually in a Perfect or Diamond League - THUS one loses games to accomplish it.


Some would say "I'm not losing on purpose", but the reality is you made a physical move which resulted in losing (NOT a good-faith effort to play the game in a fashion intended to win).


The bottom line is the TOS is flawed. It doesn't go far enough to describe what is OK and what is not, so we guess and are constantly arguing about the details.


I've suggested that ONE way (of many) to move towards a fix is to basically say if your going to SELL the better players to accomplish your goal, then it would at least cost you something to get relegated. As it stands now, if you keep your players and replace them (even if it's due to a "theme"), you have the capability to change your mind at any time.


I called it "subjective justification" because if your not playing your best players to field a "theme team", the net result is the same as a player who doesn't play his best players in order to lose.

[Ty Cobb]

Theme teams are not tanking, so far as I know. If it is, about half of us should be tossed.

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by Ty Cobb

Theme teams are not tanking, so far as I know. If it is, about half of us should be tossed.

Theme teams, in of themselves are not tanking - but changing to a theme team when you had a better team to start with is, by definition of the TOS, tanking.


And theme teams are not mentioned in the TOS, so the whole concept that theme teams are ok by the Devs in a post(s) can be changed at any time.


I simply want the TOS to fully explain what is OK and what isn't so we don't have to discuss this any more.

[bailey]

Playing perfect level with silver and bronze is very uncool. What are your other two teams doing? Are you bored with all 3? Maybe, take a break and wait for 21.

[Hertston]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

Theme teams, in of themselves are not tanking - but changing to a theme team when you had a better team to start with is, by definition of the TOS, tanking.

This is really at the core of what I was asking. I already HAVE a theme team, and have had since my first team reached Silver. I just would like to change to a different, if reasonably closely associated, theme because I can't see how the current team can progress, or remain any fun to play. If I wanted to win at any cost, I'd just trade a dozen starters and buy 'Perfect' Live! replacements. But, as you say, the starting team would be a better one.. sales will never generate enough to buy equivalent replacements or anything like.

I simply want the TOS to fully explain what is OK and what isn't so we don't have to discuss this any more.

Agreed. Sorry for kicking this off (again).. I don't visit often, as you can see. I wasn't aware it had been done to death, only that tanking was an issue.

[Hertston]

Originally Posted by bailey

Playing perfect level with silver and bronze is very uncool. What are your other two teams doing? Are you bored with all 3? Maybe, take a break and wait for 21.

I only have two, which is enough. The other is Live! only, has been since I started it, and will stay that way. It's currently in a cycle of earn cash, buy slightly better player, rinse and repeat.

Regarding the 'historical legends', I can currently field 8 starting hitters and 9 pitchers without dropping below Gold. The biggest problem would be pitching as that 9 includes only two over 85. I'd only be using silver and bronze as relief hitters.. but it's the pitching that would lose games.

Anyway, after all that it just seems easier not to bother. I'll review if I ever get relegated, otherwise it's keep 'buying' or winning the packs and hope Walter Johnson or Cy Young turn up. Perhaps that break is the best idea.

[HRBaker]

[QUOTE=Hertston;4567087][QUOTE=HRBaker;4567080]Theme teams, in of themselves are not tanking - but changing to a theme team when you had a better team to start with is, by definition of the TOS, tanking.

This is really at the core of what I was asking. I already HAVE a theme team, and have had since my first team reached Silver. I just would like to change to a different, if reasonably closely associated, theme because I can't see how the current team can progress, or remain any fun to play. If I wanted to win at any cost, I'd just trade a dozen starters and buy 'Perfect' Live! replacements. But, as you say, the starting team would be a better one.. sales will never generate enough to buy equivalent replacements or anything like.

Agreed. Sorry for kicking this off (again).. I don't visit often, as you can see. I wasn't aware it had been done to death, only that tanking was an issue.

No apology necessary - this isn't your fault. It's the fault of a TOS that provides only a loose description basing everything on the phrase "good-faith effort to play the game in a fashion intended to win".


That's a pretty damning statement when you take it at it's most basic level.

[CurlyKarkovice]

Baseball, like this game, have unwritten rules. Theme teams are fine even if not in the TOS. If anybody reports you for changing your roster because they think you have some better players on the reserve roster they are trolls. Play the game the way that makes it fun for you. This OP is basically public record what you are doing.

I did something similar earlier in the year. I had a Perfect League Team that wasn't making the playoffs. I decided to do a team with any player who had played at least one season with the White Sox. Relegated pretty fast to Gold. But changed team name to "AtSomePoint White Sox" to make it obvious what I was doing. I don't think it bothered anyone, I didn't hear from the powers that be.

[rudel.dietrich]

I think so much of this could be solved with a reset team button.

All of your roster is sold for quick sale value, you get six starter packs again and you are put back in the entry pool.
You keep your team history and transaction history and all of the PP accumulated from achievements and the quick sells before your team reset.

You can reset a team any day of the week but the actual reset occurs on the Sunday night server roll over.
We already have some leagues with less than 30 teams anyways. So no need to worry about some teams 'self relegating' themselves.

A reset idea would solve so many issues with this game where legitimate players no longer have to hang wring about redoing their teams.
Now they get a clean slate to work with with possibly tens of thousands of PP to start on a new team with.

[dkgo]

No one is going to want to lose all their progress.

Tournaments sort of help scratch the itch, but sometimes you just want to play out a season with fun lower rated players against a similar level of players. In magic I can switch out my decks. In fifa I can use a different squad every game if I want. In PT you are stuck.

[Dogberry99]

Even if the actions of the original poster are deemed to not be tanking, it can possibly still be wrong if it significantly increases the amount of achievements and points earned by their opponents.

Quite frankly, it all comes down to points. Tanking is only wrong because it results in additional points being created, both for the tanker and for those lucky enough to play them.

The relegation system is more than enough to deal with the losses - for the exact same reasons why it is more than enough to deal with the wins by powerful new teams rising through the ranks honestly. The losses are the least of concerns here. The losses are just a side effect to the real issue, which is why it is allowed to make responsible changes to your team that still result in more losses even though the TOS expressly forbids this.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by dkgo

No one is going to want to lose all their progress.

Glad you can speak for 100% of the player base.

[dkgo]

Unless the team is literally playing all irons out of position then the points impact is near microscopic. A bunch of silver historicals isn't going to bleed that many.

[dkgo]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

Glad you can speak for 100% of the player base.

Your suggestion doesn't work in theory or in practice. In theory people would have to give up all their purchased points and points earned on the market which is a complete non-starter. I guess I shouldn't say no one since you can find at least one person who will do anything, but it's not going to be popular.

In practice to avoid this you would sell every valuable card then invest all those points in live golds/diamonds that trade at near quick-sell value, so when you reset you get all those points back.