AI Manager Fail (w/ pics)

[Cruzatte]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

Just curious: Who is E. Cabrera?

Edwar Cabrera Stats, Bio, Photos, Highlights | MiLB.com Stats | The Official Site of Minor League Baseball

(Traded somebody for him. No explanation for the very good season, as far as I can tell.)

[Cruzatte]

To confirm, if a player is ejected, that shows up under "Special Notes" in the box score, correct?

... I realized that this is actually what happened in the 8th, not a walk:




It was his 2d HB, but there's no ejection in the box score. (And I guess I'd be reporting a different AI problem, with the umpiring, if a guy was ejected for a HBP on a 1-2 count with a no-no in the 8th.)

[DaddyO]

Citing CLOSE games as precedents is totally irrelevant to the complaint, which relies for it's force on the fact that the score is 13-0.

Looks like the code will be examined, because unless there was an injury or ejection, or SOMETHING hidden from our view, the choice to remove the pitcher would indeed in real-life induce a mutiny. The manager would run the risk of losing the clubhouse.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by DaddyO

Citing CLOSE games as precedents is totally irrelevant to the complaint, which relies for it's force on the fact that the score is 13-0.

Looks like the code will be examined, because unless there was an injury or ejection, or SOMETHING hidden from our view, the choice to remove the pitcher would indeed in real-life induce a mutiny. The manager would run the risk of losing the clubhouse.

The search I posted and that was refined later was for any game meeting the criteria. It supports the point that pitchers are not taken out as the OP said.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point?

[Charlie Hough]

Yes, you will not find ANY historical comparison to what happened in this OOTP case. The pitcher had allowed 0 hits and 2 walks. In virtually all cases of real life pitchers being pulled without allowing a hit, the pitcher had already surrendered RUNS and/or a number of walks, and the pitcher was either losing or at risk of losing the game if he suddenly gave up something like an extra base hit. As stated above, we have at least one case in which the pitcher had just come off the DL, but we've seen no verification of this.

Whatever the case may be, one thing is for sure: EVERY instance had an extenuating circumstance. None of them was a blowout, shutout game with a perfectly healthy pitcher who had only surrendered a couple of base runners in the entire game. The manager is simply not going to pull the pitcher in this circumstance.

I defy anyone to present me with evidence that any MLB manager, when given this scenario, would pull the pitcher. But I'd love to see it happen, because I'd love to see a pitcher beat down the manager in front of 20,000 people. It would be Nolan Ryan vs. Robin Ventura all over again.

[pstrickert]

I would expect to see an ejection noted in the box score. But who knows? That said, I find it more than coincidental that the pitcher left after hitting a batter. It makes me suspect an ejection.

[slic1149]

It seems to me that there should be some sort of trigger where an event like this automatically starts a storyline. Wouldn't it be great if there had been a story the next day with "Manager Pulls Potential No-Hit Pitcher with 13-0 Lead". As a player I would feel great about the fact that this unusual event was noted. Maybe there is a locker room revolt. Perhaps the 1st Baseman threatens to punch out the manager.

Look really, really, really weird stuff happens all of the time in Baseball. Usually when remarkable things occur it is noted by the media and often does cause a storyline to begin. This looks like a perfect time for the media to start buzzing and perhaps even the manager is fired, or he has to do something to get the clubhous back. Just a thought.

[olivertheorem]

I don't understand why this is being called a bug.

Bug = Game not doing something it is supposed to do.
Flaw = Game not doing something it should be able to do.

This is an AI flaw, not a bug. Yes, any RL manager in that situation, absent extenuating circumstances, would leave the guy in to try to finish the no-hitter. I do not believe the AI manager does (or should, but that's another question) take into account the potential for such things when making in-game lineup changes. What if in the next 2-3 outs the pitcher tore his rotator cuff or something similar? Wouldn't the outcry be "I can't believe the AI left him in with that big of a lead! BUG BUG BUG!"?

It seems to be to be a simple thing to ask for, but something which would be a pain to code to everyone's satisfaction.

[DaddyO]

Originally Posted by RchW

The search I posted and that was refined later was for any game meeting the criteria. It supports the point that pitchers are not taken out as the OP said.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point?

Nope, I misunderstood YOUR point!

[slic1149]

Originally Posted by olivertheorem

I don't understand why this is being called a bug.

Bug = Game not doing something it is supposed to do.
Flaw = Game not doing something it should be able to do.

This is an AI flaw, not a bug. Yes, any RL manager in that situation, absent extenuating circumstances, would leave the guy in to try to finish the no-hitter. I do not believe the AI manager does (or should, but that's another question) take into account the potential for such things when making in-game lineup changes. What if in the next 2-3 outs the pitcher tore his rotator cuff or something similar? Wouldn't the outcry be "I can't believe the AI left him in with that big of a lead! BUG BUG BUG!"?

It seems to be to be a simple thing to ask for, but something which would be a pain to code to everyone's satisfaction.

That's exactly why I believe anomalies should be coded to show up as story lines. Baseball is a game of stuff that should never happen. OTOH, those events are always noted and often become part of baseball lore. Taking Cabera out in the fashion he was, was a big deal. It should be treated that way by the game. In addition, it seems to me that coding the game to respond to those events would be both easier and more desirable than trying to take them out.

[Henry]

Well, my 2 cents so your welcome to ignore it if you like - but I think I've played enough games for this to be a valid point...

We all claim to be playing a "fantasy" game; one in which things happen that are fictitious - not real. In a fantasy scenario (books, movies, etc.) we are not privileged to every little detail - nor do we want to be - the amount of data we handle now in OOTP is "huge".

Why is it so hard to "imagine" a detail the game doesn't give you. For example, the pitcher complained of a twitch on the last pitch, or admits he's totally out of steam - thus walking the last batter, or the guy just has stomach cramps lol.

We sometimes want something so bad we're not willing to let anything else mess up our expectation. Does OOTP do this often? No. I've seen it once in a while myself, and simple accepted it based on a detail i didn't know.

Yes, Markus should take a look and make sure things are working the way he intended, but if the stamina rating was exceeded (which is my guess at what happened here) the game did what it was suppose to do - and IF your going to code an exception, what will it be? That if it's a no hitter you keep him in? What if he walks the next 3 guys? Should you pull him after 3 walks or 2?. It gets ugly...

Imagination is a great thing - maybe we should use it more often.

That's my 2 cents (gets off the soap box and heads for coffee).

[RchW]

Note I'm aware that the pitcher may have been tossed. The original concern is still worth discussing.

I'm not a programmer but it seems to me that these specialty (or rare) events are difficult to program because of the huge number of variables to consider. We see one obvious decision point, notable because it apparently has few variables.

Pending no-hitter.
Reasonable pitch count. Note the OP didn't indicate the stamina rating.
Big lead 13-0

Here is another obvious (at least to me) decision. Again there are apparently few variables.

Same big lead.
The opposing team has 5 hits.
The pitcher is at or near his limit.

I take him out. Some may disagree but I think most of us would not be happy if the AI left SP in to finish blow out games too often.

Markus has much more to consider. He has to cover all possible game and pitcher states from the first inning to the 19th or more. The number of variables that must be parsed explodes. Consider below.

Pitcher and Game Situation

The current score times X where X is -13 to +13. The limit may have to be -20 to +20, I don't know. Then multiply that by the following game states.
Perfect game
No-hitter, no runs
No-hitter with runs allowed.
One-hitter, no runs
One-hitter runs allowed
Repeat for a 2-6 hitter x runs or no runs allowed. Is the cut off 6, 7, 8 hits?
Repeat the above for each pitchers current state of fatigue. What about days rest prior to this game? That's another multiplier.
Home game vs away game.
Repeat the above for DH vs non-DH use
Repeat the above (non-DH) for the pitcher batting in the next inning times when he bats (1st 2nd 3rd).
Repeat the above for relief pitching availability. Availability can be multiplied by fatigue (what if the previous game went 19 innings) and handedness (what if the SP is LH and the next 3 batters are LH) or what if no LH reliever is available?

I could go on. The list above may have 20-100 variables. None of the above considers any team or AI manager strategy settings such as fast or slow hook or a player strategy setting that overrides the AI hook setting. Both of these would act as multipliers for each decision point.

Consider that a typical OOTP league might have 10,000 games/season and 600+ starting pitchers with widely variant ratings. If Markus applied too many rigid decision rules the game would crash all the time. The price of a more flexible programming logic is the rarity we see or thought we saw in the OP.

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by olivertheorem

What if in the next 2-3 outs the pitcher tore his rotator cuff or something similar? Wouldn't the outcry be "I can't believe the AI left him in with that big of a lead! BUG BUG BUG!"?

It seems to be to be a simple thing to ask for, but something which would be a pain to code to everyone's satisfaction.

Actually, no. Everyone would understand exactly why the manager left the player in the game. There was a no hitter going. Very simple to comprehend.

I don't think it would be that difficult to code. If the game simply blocked the AI from removing the pitcher if the opposing team has no hits and is trailing, I bet the vast majority of people would accept it. At worst, you block it if the team is leading. If the team is trailing, then all bets are off.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Actually, no. Everyone would understand exactly why the manager left the player in the game. There was a no hitter going. Very simple to comprehend.

I don't think it would be that difficult to code. If the game simply blocked the AI from removing the pitcher if the opposing team has no hits and is trailing, I bet the vast majority of people would accept it. At worst, you block it if the team is leading. If the team is trailing, then all bets are off.

So your rookie or A-ball phenom first pick blows his arm up being left in his first ever start no- hitter. I don't think that would be done in real life either.

Remember the AI covers every game. I don't know if it would be easy to put in opposing logic rules for the minor leagues.

[OldFatGuy]

nm, not going to get into a pitch count argument when this thread is about the AI taking out a pitcher with a 13-0 and a no-hitter.

[Go Tribe]

Tom Thibodeau would have left him in

[damientheomen3]

yeag man 107 pitches is kind of a lot but I can undersand whu you/re upset by it.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Actually, no. Everyone would understand exactly why the manager left the player in the game. There was a no hitter going. Very simple to comprehend.

I don't think it would be that difficult to code. If the game simply blocked the AI from removing the pitcher if the opposing team has no hits and is trailing, I bet the vast majority of people would accept it. At worst, you block it if the team is leading. If the team is trailing, then all bets are off.

I think that's a very good idea.

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by Groucho Marx

This is why I won't sim. Or, I should say one of the reasons why.

I play every game.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. Other sims are just as bad. The best fix I've seen in other games is a pause and override option when the AI is about to bunt, steal, or hand out (yet another) intentional walk.

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by Cruzatte

I simulated this game 10 minutes ago:






So, you're up by 13 runs going into the bottom of the 8th, and your pitcher has a no-no going. He gets two easy outs. Then he gives up a walk, and the AI yanks him.

Goodness gracious.

(No pitch count, no crazy manager preferences.)

Per the developer: The pitcher would have been removed due to an ejection or complete exhaustion.