Weird Defensive Rating

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Left-handed catchers are one that I never really understood why there are none. Yeah, I get the motion to third would be a bit tough, but so many catchers right now are perfecting the back-pick to first, and that would be the same motion. And you would kind of think that a lefty catcher would actually be beneficial in terms of fielding bunts or short plays, at least in terms of the throw to first on them. I've also heard that they don't work as well on plays to the plate for tagging, but again, that feels like a minor concern that you would just need to practice. I dunno - maybe just a case of nobody wants to risk it, so any lefty with the arm for catcher is probably better suited as a reliever anyways.

Yeah, sorry to sound like a broken record but it's the last bit. Left-handers make up a third of all pitchers but like 5% of the general population. You're putting in 6 to 7 times as many lefties as you are righties and that in turn means that pretty much everyone who is a. left-handed and b. has an above-average arm gets turned into a pitcher. All of this "the motion is awkward" stuff is after the fact logic. After all, right-handed first basemen have many of the same issues as left-handed 3B, for example, but right-handed first basemen abound.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Yeah, the last left handed third baseman played in the majors in the early 1900s if memory serves, and the last regular played in the early 1890s. IRL a third of all pitchers are LHPs even though there are only around 5-10% of us in the population, so basically if a player throws well enough to play third base, he was made into a pitcher before he completed high school.

The last left handed third baseman (in very limited appearances) was Mike Squires of the White Sox, who briefly appeared in 1983, and made four starts there in 1984. Tony LaRussa trying to be a bleeping genius again? Mebbe.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

The last left handed third baseman (in very limited appearances) was Mike Squires of the White Sox, who briefly appeared in 1983, and made four starts there in 1984. Tony LaRussa trying to be a bleeping genius again? Mebbe.

Did he make *starts* there? Someone upthread posted the last instances of lefties playing third and I'm almost positive the only full-on starts since like the 1920s was Mattingly's series against the Mariners in 1985. I didn't go in and look at Squires' appearances but I thought they were all in relief. I could easily be wrong though...

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Did he make *starts* there? Someone upthread posted the last instances of lefties playing third and I'm almost positive the only full-on starts since like the 1920s was Mattingly's series against the Mariners in 1985. I didn't go in and look at Squires' appearances but I thought they were all in relief. I could easily be wrong though...

Squires made four starts at 3B in 1984. Mattingly's were in 1986 though, so I guess he's the lucky contestant.

[BoomerSoonerAMH]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Yeah, sorry to sound like a broken record but it's the last bit. Left-handers make up a third of all pitchers but like 5% of the general population. You're putting in 6 to 7 times as many lefties as you are righties and that in turn means that pretty much everyone who is a. left-handed and b. has an above-average arm gets turned into a pitcher. All of this "the motion is awkward" stuff is after the fact logic. After all, right-handed first basemen have many of the same issues as left-handed 3B, for example, but right-handed first basemen abound.

I’d argue that the “motion is awkward” has quite a bit to do with it. My son is left handed and started noticing the extra time it took him to make throws from shortstop starting in 7th grade. It was the point at which they started playing on a 90’ diamond. His arm strength covered the footwork issues on smaller diamonds and he was fine on hard hit balls, but anything he had to charge was tricky for him.

Concerning 1B, the only significant advantage a left has over a righty at first is glove side is closer to a runner on pickoff throws. Regarding throws from first, the only throw back to the other side of the diamond is on a throw to 2nd which isn’t that awkward for a RH 1B.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by BoomerSoonerAMH

I’d argue that the “motion is awkward” has quite a bit to do with it. My son is left handed and started noticing the extra time it took him to make throws from shortstop starting in 7th grade. It was the point at which they started playing on a 90’ diamond. His arm strength covered the footwork issues on smaller diamonds and he was fine on hard hit balls, but anything he had to charge was tricky for him.

Concerning 1B, the only significant advantage a left has over a righty at first is glove side is closer to a runner on pickoff throws. Regarding throws from first, the only throw back to the other side of the diamond is on a throw to 2nd which isn’t that awkward for a RH 1B.

Sure, the motion is awkward, I can't dispute that. But if it was *just* that the motion was awkward or even if that was primarily the case, you'd still see kids with superior talent rising above that, the same way you see pitchers with weird pitching motions making it all the way to the big leagues. Hell, we've had a one-handed pitcher in the major leagues in the past, and even a one-armed outfielder during World War 2 (he was a horrible player, but still). At the end of the day, cream rises to the top... that is, unless said cream has already been moved somewhere where it has a far greater chance of rising. And frankly, there's also the fact that the motion is considered awkward for left-handers because third base has been created with right-handers in mind for the past 100+ years. If there wasn't this issue - where pretty much every left-hander with a plus arm gets asked to pitch by the time they play high school ball, where, say, 30% of all people were naturally left-handed (I feel like you'd see like 50% LHPs in that universe, but even so, pulling 50% out of 30% of the population is a way better ratio than pulling 30% out of 5%), you'd have a long legacy of people figuring out efficient ways to throw the ball from third to first or from short to first left-handed.

At first, one of the big factors that people bring up at third is that a player's glove hand is on the infield side, which means that they don't have to reach across their body for hard hit groundballs in the hole. Right handed throwing first basemen have their gloves hugging the line. I think this may primarily be seen as not a big thing because most 1B aren't considered fielders secondarily if at all, but if 1B was a premium fielding position that would certainly be considered a factor.

[BoomerSoonerAMH]

I won’t argue with the premise comparing percentages of lefties in the general population to the percentage of LHP. It makes sense but the problem is that disproportionate percentages doesn’t indicate causality. In that same vein, we could look at the percentage of the general population that is left handed (10%) vs. the percentage of lefties in all of MLB (25% per a 2008 report that I found online). Should we conclude that lefties are somehow more talented in general than righties?

We could also look at the percentage of the general population that eventually rises to the level of playing professional baseball. It’s a really small percentage, but when looking at the highest level of professional baseball, MLB, there are only 90 starting infielders at any given time (excluding first basemen). By the time you’ve arrived at this point, the slightest advantage between 2 players is actually a huge deal. Do a lot of lefties get moved to P/1B/OF because they’re left handed? Sure they do. The issue, however, is that as the talent level of the player population increases so does the value of any advantage a player has. Knowing that at some point the advantage righties have over lefties is going to catch up to them, it makes sense that they’d get moved to P/1B/OF in order to keep their bat/arm in the game.

[IanIachimoe]

THANK YOU!

I couldn't figure out why Dominic Smith was't gaining a rating at 3B. sounds like it's due to him being left handed. playing the position adequately FWIW.

[Bunktown Ballers]

If I'm not mistaken the 1 armed players name was PETE GRAY (PETE GREY). I remember reading a story on him. He hit in the low .200's

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Bunktown Ballers

If I'm not mistaken the 1 armed players name was PETE GRAY (PETE GREY). I remember reading a story on him. He hit in the low .200's

.218 with no power or ability to draw walks. He was worth -1 WAR to the Browns that year in about half a season's worth of at-bats, although he played during a war year so replacement level might have been a bit lower than normal so read that for what it's worth.

[bigd51]

Saw an article a few days ago about a current one-armed catcher playing in middle school that I though was cool.

As for the left-handed SS argument... take this play from Simba and the two plays that follow it.

If he were left-handed, MAYBE he'd have a bit more range, but on plays like this deep in the infield between SS and 3B (which he probably sees more of), he'd have to turn toward the outfield and do a complete 180 just to get the ball off... which I'm guessing would deeply affect his accuracy and arm strength compared to a simple jump step as a righty.

So I kinda understand the "stigma" that's attached to left-handed SS's and 3B

[Yarideki]

This is a bit off topic to the current discussion but in OOTP 19 would I be able to force a defensive rating onto a lefty glove that he otherwise wouldn't get? Alternatively, is there a version of OOTP that *doesn't* care about glove handedness or way to remove the handedness force in version 19?
Also, this might be a bit of a moot point but I did have a lefty catcher in one of my online leagues in OOTP 18, though he never did crack into the majors. It was refreshing to see that it could happen at least for catchers.

[Syd Thrift]

You can play a guy with no given rating at third base. That rating is something akin to OOTP's idea of how he'll play the position anyway, not necessarily a true test of it in action. Like I said either earlier in this post or elsewhere, I've had success in the deadball era in hiding unrated players at second base. Depending on the player's arm and error rating, he might not be a complete disaster at third base even if the game won't assign him a formal rating there.