Joe Mauer and the Quest for .500 (or .400, as it will eventually become)

[MikeyMikey]

Originally Posted by pseudofool

Well, you get human, expert insight--former coaches, managers. Have your own experts (scouts) watch and interview the player over a period of time, etc.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. These scouts will tell you that catcher X can do a better job of calling a game using their memory which is notoriously unreliable. While the statistics show no correlation of skills between pitchers and different catchers.

I just don't think game calling is a skill that someone has a big advantage over another player.

[dsvitak]

Catching Up -- The Hardball Times

Here is the article I remember reading several years ago.

The notion, statistically, of Catcher's ERA, or CERA, "not being statistically significant" doesn't hold water.

What this article DOES indicate, is that those individuals that are clearly superior defensive catchers absolutely do affect the total runs allowed by a pitching staff over the course of a year.

Yadier Molina, allowing all of 12 sb's at this point of the year is pretty damned impressed, as there are teams that have allowed close to 70.

So, how much is pitch calling, and how much are fewer SB, WP and PB's? Hard to say.

[MikeyMikey]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Catching Up -- The Hardball Times

Here is the article I remember reading several years ago.

The notion, statistically, of Catcher's ERA, or CERA, "not being statistically significant" doesn't hold water.

What this article DOES indicate, is that those individuals that are clearly superior defensive catchers absolutely do affect the total runs allowed by a pitching staff over the course of a year.

Yadier Molina, allowing all of 12 sb's at this point of the year is pretty damned impressed, as there are teams that have allowed close to 70.

So, how much is pitch calling, and how much are fewer SB, WP and PB's? Hard to say.

Did you read that article?

Originally Posted by from article

# Team ERA with the catcher behind the plate. The impact that catchers have on ERA is certainly tenuous, as Keith Woolner has written, but it's worth a look.

Also, it's a half of one season? Hardly enough data to come to a conclusion.

[pseudofool]

Originally Posted by MikeyMikey

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. These scouts will tell you that catcher X can do a better job of calling a game using their memory which is notoriously unreliable. While the statistics show no correlation of skills between pitchers and different catchers.

I just don't think game calling is a skill that someone has a big advantage over another player.

Scouts take meticulous notes. And managers and coaches are certainly reliable when it comes to evaluating their own players.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

Catching is difficult. I am not going to dispute that. But being difficult does not nessacarily mean it is any more valuable than any other posistion. Certain players are able to catch and others are not.
Lets think about something else too. When a catcher is not catching, where is he moved? Usualy 1st base or a corner OF spot. Maybe 3rd if it is early in his carrer. Most catchers don't have the defensive ability to play demanding posistions.
I would also not describe catchers as over flowing with athletic talent. Even in the minors or early in their carrers they are slow and have pretty low agility.

They may not be swift but a lot of MLB catchers have cannon arms and if they dont they are moved to other positions.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by MikeyMikey

Yet the statistics bear that out. Of course the pitcher can always wave off our poor pitch selection.

I'd imagine there is probably a baseline of knowledge that all catchers at a major league level have. The variation does not seem to be significant.

Well obviously Greg Maddux disagrees. He never liked throwing to one of the best hitting catchers of his time(Javier Lopez) instead only pitched to a catcher with a batting average in the low 200's.

Id speculate the reason we cant find statistical evidence is because around 80 percent of the catchers are basically the same defensively. The evidence lies in the other 20 percent of really poor or really great catchers(Jason Varitek, Joe Mauer, Yadier Molina, Mike Piazza, Javier Lopez)

[MikeyMikey]

Originally Posted by pseudofool

Scouts take meticulous notes. And managers and coaches are certainly reliable when it comes to evaluating their own players.

How does Jeff Francouer have a starting job then?

[MikeyMikey]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Id speculate the reason we cant find statistical evidence is because around 80 percent of the catchers are basically the same defensively. The evidence lies in the other 20 percent of really poor or really great catchers(Jason Varitek, Joe Mauer, Yadier Molina, Mike Piazza, Javier Lopez)

But it doesn't even show for those players despite thousands of innings behind the plate.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by MikeyMikey

But it doesn't even show for those players despite thousands of innings behind the plate.

Well what are these stats breaking down?

Is it taking Maddux's ERA when pitching to Lopez vs other catchers or is it just taking every pitcher on the Braves staff wiht Lopez catcher vs random catching and using it as 1 lump sum stat?

I mean the Twins ERA in April was over 5 and since Mauer has come back it has been substantially lower.

Of course if Mauer is catching the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th starters while Redman catches the Twins ace the numbers are going to be skewed from the start as the ace by default should have a much better CERA than the bottom 4 in the twins rotation.

[MikeyMikey]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Well what are these stats breaking down?

Is it taking Maddux's ERA when pitching to Lopez vs other catchers or is it just taking every pitcher on the Braves staff wiht Lopez catcher vs random catching and using it as 1 lump sum stat?

I mean the Twins ERA in April was over 5 and since Mauer has come back it has been substantially lower.

Of course if Mauer is catching the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th starters while Redman catchers the Twins ace the numbers are going to be skewed from the start as the ace by default should have a much better CERA than the bottom 4 in the twins rotation.

It was battery specific not staff. You'd have to look at the bbpro article to find specific examples. I'm on the train so I can't do that right now.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by MikeyMikey

It was battery specific not staff. You'd have to look at the bbpro article to find specific examples. I'm on the train so I can't do that right now.

Ill take your word for it as I dont have time at the moment either to dig into it even though it does surprise me.

I was never a huge fan of Varitek until I seen him do something a few weeks ago that was impressive IMO and helped me realize why the Red Sox think so highly of him. Beckett was getting upset with the home plate umpire and was about ready to lose it when Varitek stepped into the umpires face and got himself kicked out of the game to save his pitcher. Stats may not identify things like that but it does quite a few things to help the team.

Also I wonder if having a good game caller like Varitek rubs off on the other catchers/pitchers so they are able to better identify what calling a good game is all about.

[pseudofool]

Morales was the problem for the Twins early on. The guy can hit, but there's been questions about all aspects of his catching.

[MikeyMikey]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Ill take your word for it as I dont have time at the moment either to dig into it even though it does surprise me.

I was never a huge fan of Varitek until I seen him do something a few weeks ago that was impressive IMO and helped me realize why the Red Sox think so highly of him. Beckett was getting upset with the home plate umpire and was about ready to lose it when Varitek stepped into the umpires face and got himself kicked out of the game to save his pitcher. Stats may not identify things like that but it does quite a few things to help the team.
.

Apparently the link doesn't have the individual players anymore. I get a 404 error message. Here's the rankings based on what was there.

Top 10 Catcher careers by RPR, 1981-97, (min 10,000 PA caught)

NAME PA RPR XRA
Kreuter,Chad 10859 -0.0148 -160.5
Skinner,Joel 12265 -0.0115 -141.4
Berryhill,Damon 11391 -0.0088 -100.8
Surhoff,B.J. 16827 -0.0086 -145.5
Dempsey,Rick 23108 -0.0082 -189.9
Martinez,Buck 10467 -0.0080 -84.0
Fisk,Carlton 30402 -0.0075 -228.0
LaValliere,Mike 21126 -0.0073 -155.0
Harper,Brian 13527 -0.0068 -91.8
Hassey,Ron 18935 -0.0060 -114.3

Worst 10 Catcher careers by RPR, 1981-97 (min 10,000 PA caught)

NAME PA RPR XRA
Steinbach,Terry 26575 0.0047 126.1
Cerone,Rick 22859 0.0053 120.4
Heath,Mike 25820 0.0053 136.3
Stanley,Mike 15058 0.0059 89.0
Ortiz,Junior 13599 0.0068 92.0
Bando,Chris 10202 0.0078 79.1
Flaherty,John 10253 0.0082 83.9
Petralli,Geno 10651 0.0089 95.1
Rodriguez,Ivan 16780 0.0103 173.3
Girardi,Joe 13675 0.0136 185.5

Also I wonder if having a good game caller like Varitek rubs off on the other catchers/pitchers so they are able to better identify what calling a good game is all about

The article mentions this as well:

There are other places to look for a catcher’s influence beyond the game-calling ability looked for in this study. A catcher might be able to impact the "clutch" performance of the pitcher, helping him focus in high leverage situations. Such a pitcher would surrender fewer runs than expected from his hits & walks allowed. A catcher who senses what his pitcher is throwing well might be more efficient in calling pitches, reducing the pitch count per batter, and thus allowing the starter to go deeper into the game and preserving the bullpen. Nothing in this study precludes any of the possibilities from being true, and this is a promising line for future investigation.