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Old 04-27-2013, 09:50 PM   #1
abefrohman
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Rain-outs & double-headers

I'd like to see rain-outs in OOTP 15 where the game(s) would need to be replayed as part of a double-header. Example: Opening Day between the Cardinals and Cubs gets rained out. The computer could then ask you "Make up as double-header tomorrow?" and you could select "Yes" or "No" and the game would be made up.
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Old 04-28-2013, 03:38 PM   #2
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That sounds like a great idea!
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Old 04-28-2013, 03:42 PM   #3
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I really like that idea, especially if in the middle of a game and then it gets ppd due to rain so those stats don't count, adds another level of realism to the game. Although would be very frustrating if your good stats are wiped out lol
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Old 04-28-2013, 05:17 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abefrohman View Post
I'd like to see rain-outs in OOTP 15 where the game(s) would need to be replayed as part of a double-header. Example: Opening Day between the Cardinals and Cubs gets rained out. The computer could then ask you "Make up as double-header tomorrow?" and you could select "Yes" or "No" and the game would be made up.
What would you do if the game was the third game of a three game series and the teams don't play again or don't play again at the same field? I don't think your idea would be good because of those situations.
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Old 04-28-2013, 05:52 PM   #5
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As stated in many of the threads for this request, the OOTP scheduling function is not strong enough to be able to allow for those. This is a thread that appears many times and it is the same. Scheduling rain outs is most likely never going to be a part because OOTP just cant do it yet.

Someone should try to come up with a better schedule producer but until then, it is a nice idea, just wont happen.
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:09 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfsutton View Post
As stated in many of the threads for this request, the OOTP scheduling function is not strong enough to be able to allow for those. This is a thread that appears many times and it is the same. Scheduling rain outs is most likely never going to be a part because OOTP just cant do it yet.

Someone should try to come up with a better schedule producer but until then, it is a nice idea, just wont happen.
I think this is a pretty bad excuse. It can't be that hard to allow at least the following logic for rainout cases:

1. If the game is already long enough to be an official game, call it.

2. If in a series, schedule a double-header the next day.

3. If this series is already full but the teams play another series later in the season, schedule a double-header then.

4. If no double-header is possible, but the teams have a common day off, schedule a game there (possibly add an exception for, say, the all-star game).

5. If none of the above is possible, the game magically continues just like it does now.
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Old 06-16-2013, 01:10 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoetze View Post
I think this is a pretty bad excuse. It can't be that hard to allow at least the following logic for rainout cases:

1. If the game is already long enough to be an official game, call it.

2. If in a series, schedule a double-header the next day.

3. If this series is already full but the teams play another series later in the season, schedule a double-header then.

4. If no double-header is possible, but the teams have a common day off, schedule a game there (possibly add an exception for, say, the all-star game).

5. If none of the above is possible, the game magically continues just like it does now.
You are drastically overestimating the ability of the scheduling function of the game. This might be possible, yes, but not with OOTP as it currently stands. as elfsutton said above, we need a more powerful scheduling tool first.
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Old 06-16-2013, 02:29 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3 View Post
You are drastically overestimating the ability of the scheduling function of the game. This might be possible, yes, but not with OOTP as it currently stands. as elfsutton said above, we need a more powerful scheduling tool first.
What exactly do you mean by "scheduling function"? OOTP may suck at generating schedules from scratch, but that is not required at all by my suggestion. Of course, accounting for every possible case is hard. But if you cheat and just keep playing 5% of the time, you can easily cover the other 95%.
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Old 06-16-2013, 04:05 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoetze View Post
I think this is a pretty bad excuse. It can't be that hard to allow at least the following logic for rainout cases:

1. If the game is already long enough to be an official game, call it.

2. If in a series, schedule a double-header the next day.

3. If this series is already full but the teams play another series later in the season, schedule a double-header then.

4. If no double-header is possible, but the teams have a common day off, schedule a game there (possibly add an exception for, say, the all-star game).
This is not a particularly realistic approach insofar as the major league level is concerned. Consider the following statistics from the 2011 MLB season: there were 51 postponements (of which two were make up games). One of those postponements was not made up. Here is how the remaining 50 were made up:
  • 24 as part of a split, separate admission day-night doubleheader (48%)
  • 15 as single games on a common off day (30%)
  • 11 as part of a regular, single admission doubleheader (22%)
As you can see, a standard doubleheader to make up a postponed game was the least used method. The separate admission split day/night doubleheader was the most common, and that's important because those are effectively two entirely separate games, each with separate tickets sold and attendance, that just happen to occur on the same day (indeed, MLB does not officially count day-night doubleheaders in its doubleheader statistics). OOTP does not make any distinction at all in the kinds of doubleheaders. So in order for it to do postponements and rescheduling realistically it's going to have to understand the difference between single admission and separate admission doubleheaders. These would have to be accounted for in some method in the schedule files for example.

Something else to note is that the majors and minors handle rescheduling very differently. In the minors, postponed games are almost always made up as regular single admission doubleheaders, either during that series, during the next series between the teams, or in the other club's park if the two teams are finished for the season in the original park. If the teams do not play again, then the game is not made up. The majors, in contrast, will do everything possible to reschedule a game, even if the two clubs are finished for the season. Indeed, if the postponed game has a bearing on the pennant race, it can even be replayed after the end of the regular season if necessary. The minors, however, never do this.

Another wrinkle to consider is that the rate of postponements has varied over the years. In earlier days, a postponement rate of 10% or more was not uncommon in MLB; these days it's typically around 1%-1.5%. The minors typically are postponed more often; it varies between leagues but these days overall it's about 4%-5%. So there's another distinction that OOTP would need to understand and recreate.

Let's add to that the Scores & Schedule and other screens which would need to be updated to include postponed and rescheduled game info. The MLB.com Scoreboard is a good example of how it notes the information so that it's clear when a game is postponed and when a game is a make up game. Then there's the rule added last season which allowed clubs a 26-man active roster for a doubleheader if it was scheduled at least 48 hours in advance. OOTP does not recreate this rule as yet.

Put this all together and there's lots to consider. It's doable but will take a lot of good planning to do well.
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Old 06-16-2013, 05:00 PM   #10
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I do like this idea but some limitations come to mind.

Where does the weather logic come from? I'm not sure the game does anything other than take a random snapshot of possible weather conditions for the month in question and applies that to game day. I don't think that weather conditions other than rain-on rain-off change in-game. Where would the game find/create conditions that would trigger a game to be suspended with such a limited weather function.

What about tied games and not-official games?

Having said that this is one of the "realism proposals" that piques my interest. I could see some very interesting Septembers happening with a couple of doubleheaders and/or some suspended games scheduled.
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Old 06-16-2013, 05:16 PM   #11
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I do like this idea but some limitations come to mind.

Where does the weather logic come from? I'm not sure the game does anything other than take a random snapshot of possible weather conditions for the month in question and applies that to game day. I don't think that weather conditions other than rain-on rain-off change in-game. Where would the game find/create conditions that would trigger a game to be suspended with such a limited weather function.
This wouldn't be a problem. The game already operates on a percentage basis for rain-on/rain-off. It wouldn't be hard at all to have a piece of code that allows for a percent of rain delays to become rain-outs.

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What about tied games and not-official games?
That, however, would likely be a serious issue, yeah.
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Old 06-16-2013, 05:18 PM   #12
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What about tied games and not-official games?
Rain-shortened games could be doable, since it's a regular game just with fewer innings than normal played. (However, as best I recall, in the majors at least official games of less than 9 innings are fairly rare. I can post some numbers on that whenever my regular computer gets back online.)

I'd stay away from tie games, as that can get dicey. A tie game relies on the particular rules of when a game can be called, and those have changed over the years. Plus tie games, unlike postponed games, count in terms of player statistics and attendance even though there'll be a game played to make up for the tie. So overall I'd say they'd be more trouble than they're worth.

I'd also stay away from suspended games as well. It causes potential record-keeping issues since the game is started one day but completed on another day (and may not even be completed in the same park). Plus there are different rules on when a game can be suspended. In the minors almost any game stopped by rain, even one just a half-inning old, becomes a suspended game. In the majors, the rules are more strict (in addition to having changed over the years).

Just getting games postponed and rescheduled would be good enough in my opinion. It adds sufficient realism and flavour without getting bogged down in all the nitty gritty facets of reality like tie and suspended games.
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Old 06-17-2013, 07:44 AM   #13
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Le Grande Orange, I don't really see why distinguishing between "standard" and day-night doubleheaders should be such a big deal. If the game just treated every double header as two seperate games on the same day, that would be more than good enough for me.

Anyway, to sum it up: perfect is the enemy of good. Please don't sweep rain-outs under the carpet entirely just because you can't do them perfectly.
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Old 06-17-2013, 09:51 AM   #14
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The main issue with coding rain outs as far as Markus has said in the past is scheduling the make up game.
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Old 06-17-2013, 10:02 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfsutton View Post
As stated in many of the threads for this request, the OOTP scheduling function is not strong enough to be able to allow for those. This is a thread that appears many times and it is the same. Scheduling rain outs is most likely never going to be a part because OOTP just cant do it yet.

Someone should try to come up with a better schedule producer but until then, it is a nice idea, just wont happen.
While OOTP may not be able to reschedule games due to rainouts. Rain shortened games should be doable. High Heat had this 14 yrs ago.
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Old 06-17-2013, 02:40 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by mgoetze View Post
Le Grande Orange, I don't really see why distinguishing between "standard" and day-night doubleheaders should be such a big deal ...
Because that`s how it is in real life. There`s a reason MLB prefers day-night doubleheaders and that`s because each game requires a separate ticket. Clubs don`t lose any potential revenue. In contrast a regular two-for-one doubleheader means a game`s potential revenue is lost.

The minors don`t have much choice since the schedules and travel arrangements there are already tight.

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If the game just treated every double header as two seperate games on the same day, that would be more than good enough for me.
Why do it half-arsed when it can be done properly from the start? We wouldn't accept the game spitting out unrealistic player statistics, so why treat other areas unrealistically? Doing it right the first time means no kludges that only have to be reworked again in later versions.

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Originally Posted by mgoetze View Post
Anyway, to sum it up: perfect is the enemy of good. Please don't sweep rain-outs under the carpet entirely just because you can't do them perfectly.
See above.


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The main issue with coding rain outs as far as Markus has said in the past is scheduling the make up game.
I think that can be handled with a series of "if-then" statements. That's really the sticking point, knowing the conditions around when a postponed game should be slotted back into the schedule. Shouldn't be too difficult to construct a proper list of steps to follow.

I'm thinking one way OOTP could open up its scheduling is by having two schedule files. One is the 'original' schedule file, this is the base one that the game uses to set up the slate of matchups for the upcoming season, and would operate just as it does now. OOTP then creates a copy of that schedule file for specific use in the current season; let's call that the 'dynamic' schedule file.

The first thing OOTP does with that dynamic file is individually adjust the starting times for each home team; that is, each home team can have its own unique typical starting time. These can be set in the team options section, and add more variety and flavour, especially for those using the RTS feature. No longer would you be restricted to whatever start times were entered into the schedule file itself. It's in the dynamic schedule file that OOTP keeps track of postponements and slots in the dates for make up games. At the end of the season, OOTP then deletes that dynamic schedule file since it's no longer needed. It takes the original schedule file, swaps around the opponents to create new matchups just like it does now, then creates a copy of that in the form of a new dynamic schedule file for the next season. Rinse and repeat for every season.

I think a system like this could work out really well, adding a lot of new potential features to the schedule side of things.

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While OOTP may not be able to reschedule games due to rainouts. Rain shortened games should be doable.
Other than being a tiny proportion of games played, there is still the matter of games potentially becoming suspended or tied if they can be interrupted by bad weather during their playing. To avoid such outcomes the game may have to "cheat" with its weather interruption such that the game isn't called off until there's a winning condition for one of the clubs.


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Originally Posted by abefrohman View Post
I'd like to see rain-outs in OOTP 15 where the game(s) would need to be replayed as part of a double-header. Example: Opening Day between the Cardinals and Cubs gets rained out. The computer could then ask you "Make up as double-header tomorrow?" and you could select "Yes" or "No" and the game would be made up.
Problems with the manual approach:
  • Does the user have to reschedule every postponed game manually, even for AI-controlled teams? Or does the user only handle their own club, in which case what happens with AI teams? Do they not have postponements then?
  • What happens for those who sim stretches of the season? Does the sim stop every time there is a postponement? Not only would that get irritating, but it could mean a lot of games that the user has to reschedule if bad weather has been frequent.
The above illustrate why an automated system is much more preferable. The user can then concentrate on running their team and not have to handle league administrative tasks.
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Old 06-17-2013, 03:09 PM   #17
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Incidentally, here are the real-life postponement rates for the majors and minors thus far in the 2013 season, through games of Sunday, June 16th. These figures include make up games, whether played or postponed. These rates will continue to drop as the season progresses into the generally better weather of July and August.

MLB: 31 out of 1059 (2.9%)

International League: 38 out of 525 (7.2%)
Pacific Coast League: 25 out of 584 (4.3%)
Eastern League: 27 out of 433 (6.2%)
Southern League: 25 out of 364 (6.9%)
Texas League: 15 out of 289 (5.2%)
California League: 2 out of 352 (0.6%)
Carolina League: 22 out of 301 (7.3%)
Florida State League: 37 out of 423 (8.7%)
Midwest League: 68 out of 614* (11.1%)
South Atlantic League: 49 out of 528 (9.3%)

* One game ended in a tie.
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Old 06-17-2013, 03:14 PM   #18
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Because that`s how it is in real life. There`s a reason MLB prefers day-night doubleheaders and that`s because each game requires a separate ticket. Clubs don`t lose any potential revenue. In contrast a regular two-for-one doubleheader means a game`s potential revenue is lost.

The minors don`t have much choice since the schedules and travel arrangements there are already tight.
Well, seeing as there are no financials whatsoever for the minors anyway, that can be safely ignored. And the financials for the majors are pretty weak too, so it doesn't matter much. As you said, MLB prefers day-nighters anyway, so just schedule any doubleheader that way and you should be good to go for a start.

Quote:
Why do it half-arsed when it can be done properly from the start? We wouldn't accept the game spitting out unrealistic player statistics, so why treat other areas unrealistically? Doing it right the first time means no kludges that only have to be reworked again in later versions.
I am just arguing against those here vaguely claiming that this is all too complicated for OOTP's "scheduling function", whatever that is, and that we therefore should not ask for rainouts because it's demanding too much. I don't buy any of that, but nevertheless if it is indeed so hard then please at least give me the half-arsed version, because that would be an improvement too.

From what you wrote further on in your post it seems we are actually largely in agreement.
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Old 06-17-2013, 03:15 PM   #19
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Florida State League: 37 out of 423 (8.7%)
And here I was thinking Florida had nice weather.
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Old 06-17-2013, 03:37 PM   #20
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Well, seeing as there are no financials whatsoever for the minors anyway, that can be safely ignored.
The minors are already ignored too much IMO. There are important differences between the majors and minors, and OOTP at this point does little to recreate those distinctions. It should.

There are also those who run independent minor leagues alongside their major leagues. Those would have financials.

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And the financials for the majors are pretty weak too, so it doesn't matter much.
At present. But sooner or later those will be improved (it's one of my missions), and getting all the related aspects which underpin a better financial system is of critical importance. In short: do not half-arse something in the name of expediency because it will likely end up biting you in the arse sooner or later.

Implement it properly now. That will come in very handy later on.

(And it's not as if anything I've suggested need be terribly complicated to do. Nothing about it seems particularly difficult. A few little changes to the file structure of the schedule files, which can easily still be backwards compatible, and we're good to go. I've already thought some of the specifics through.)

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As you said, MLB prefers day-nighters anyway, so just schedule any doubleheader that way and you should be good to go for a start.
Except for the fact that approach is unrealistic. Might as well sanction numerous players hitting 100 home runs each season.

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I am just arguing against those here vaguely claiming that this is all too complicated for OOTP's "scheduling function", whatever that is, and that we therefore should not ask for rainouts because it's demanding too much.
I used to be opposed to postponements but have changed my mind in recent years. There are certainly caveats that need to be considered (I have attempted to outline some of them) but I now think it's quite doable with some research and work. So on this we agree.

Sooner or later I'm going to sit down and write out my ideas into a more formal proposal for Markus & Co.
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