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Old 10-01-2016, 01:57 PM   #81
Habsfan18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nino33 View Post
Could the better AI be an option that could be turned off by those that want to sim quickly? I don't think 2 minutes to sim a day is to long at all myself (2 minutes to sim a day with a simulation game isn't even close to "unplayable" to me, while for me the AI issues I've read about are a significant problem)


Since FHM began development I've bought OOTP twice (to support the company) but haven't played it because of all I've read in the Forum; I'd be interested in continuing to purchase and actually play OOTP if the AI was noticeably better


As I said in the FHM3 thread when Sebastian said "FHM is not really meant to be a fast sim game" - So glad to hear this! I simply don't believe a game that you can fast sim through a season in minutes has the level of detail and attention to detail that I'm looking for
Nino, many people use OOTP as a career simulation to simulate an entire gaming world with some even simming entire weeks or even months at a time. Many fictional players simulate years before playing to build up league histories. Taking 2+ minutes to simulate 1 day simply would not work in a game like OOTP. It would kill the simulation aspect of it. Something like that may work in EHM, but for OOTP simulation speed is very important. I can simulate an entire season in like 10 minutes if I want to, sometimes in even less time. I can sim a day in like 10 seconds. That's extremely helpful in many simulations for those of us with long-term leagues.

Then again, if the AI can be greatly improved by slowing down sim speed a bit, I'm all for it. But if it got to the point where it took 2+ minutes to sim even 1 day, I can't see there being a positive reception to that.

Last edited by Habsfan18; 10-01-2016 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 10-01-2016, 02:27 PM   #82
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I think my first sentence (in what I said/what you quoted) completely addresses the concerns you're expressing
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Old 10-01-2016, 02:40 PM   #83
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I think my first sentence (in what I said/what you quoted) completely addresses the concerns you're expressing
But realistically, I don't think an option like that would work IMO.

Game mode 1: Old AI but fast sim speed

Game mode 2: Completey rewritten and improved AI but drastically slower sim times

How would OOTP market that? I don't think you can use 2 different AI systems in the same game. I'm no expert by any means but I just don't see how that could be possible.

Besides, these so called "AI issues" have become massively overblown here over these past few months. Have some major annoying AI related bugs and issues been introduced over these past few patches? Yes. But they've also been corrected. Is the AI perfect? Of course not. Can and should it be improved every year? Absolutely. But this is still the BEST baseball sim on the planet and possibly even the best sports sim game period along with FM.

This sudden notion that OOTP has a poor and game breaking AI is ludicrous. And I'm not directing this comment at you, Nino. Just some of the stuff I've been reading.

The AI can be improved in many areas, but the franchise certainly does not have an AI that makes the game unplayable nor is it a "significant problem."
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Old 10-01-2016, 03:20 PM   #84
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The game has some significant problems? ANY significant problems?

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If that were the case, you would think that I would have seen them by now. The notion that the game is "unplayable" is just silly.
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Old 10-01-2016, 03:49 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Orcin View Post
The game has some significant problems? ANY significant problems?

Attachment 472191

If that were the case, you would think that I would have seen them by now. The notion that the game is "unplayable" is just silly.
Yeah, even with all my whining I've played 533 hours. Then again, I have 2113 hours of OOTP16.
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Old 10-01-2016, 04:26 PM   #86
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So now we do have a patch that works as good as being playable ?
No extra spinnoff new bugs that has been popping up with the last 6-7 patches on this version.

Not easy to filter the talk in this thread since it has dropped away from the actual problems that this patch was ment to fix.
In many cases the discussion on extra stuff or changed AI handling surely can't be mixed with a patch.
Isn't this a big problem that has indeed caused many patches to render new bugs. I mean adding some new stuff with every patch.

One thing I react too is that all "older" patch-threads on present version is gone, so it's hard to sum up what has been buggy and then what has been fixed. Same thing of course with all new tricks added on most of the patches.

Whatever, I think since the conversation has drifted away from the patch issues this might be the FINAL patch and an acceptable one to boot.

Thanks OOTP-team.... Yet again you have performed with highest standard.

(Now please don't say I am wrong now guys )
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Old 10-01-2016, 05:27 PM   #87
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Haven't noticed any bugs yet with this patch, which I installed yesterday.

One thing I did notice though, is that all of the young international amateur free agent pitchers that are generated on July 1st are coming in listed as RP now instead of starters. Also, all of the big potential ones generated are pitchers. Haven't seen any 4 or 5 star potential position players generated yet, although I haven't tested extensively with this patch.

Is the switch to RP from SP by design? I assume as long as they have good stamina they can still transition to starters as they progress and get older?
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Old 10-01-2016, 05:40 PM   #88
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I don't want people to be confused....I think things are very good right now, and for anyone to say OOTP is unplayable due to AI issues is just plain wrong. I am simply thinking of ways to continue improving OOTP, and as Markus acknowledged in this thread, the AI CAN in fact be improved upon at the cost of speed...something I would be in favor of, as I like to play very slowly for imersivness. If the AI were even better, that imersivness would be even greater...A smarter AI opponent = a more realistic & challenging GM experience IMO.

Last edited by PSUColonel; 10-02-2016 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 10-01-2016, 06:28 PM   #89
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I simply asked Markus a question


I expressed my own thoughts/opinion; my thoughts are based on 4 years of reading in the Forum and people can have different opinions (and nothing written after my post has changed my thoughts/opinion).


And it was Markus who used the term "unplayable" (I just said taking two minutes to sim a day doesn't make a simulation game unplayable to me)


It's interesting that some claim there are essentially no AI issues, while Markus said "we could improve the AI in a meaningful way (so that people would actually notice the effect)"
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Old 10-01-2016, 06:30 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clamel View Post
One thing I react too is that all "older" patch-threads on present version is gone, so it's hard to sum up what has been buggy and then what has been fixed. Same thing of course with all new tricks added on most of the patches.

(Now please don't say I am wrong now guys )

Sorry, but you are wrong on this. The threads introducing each patch are still available on the forum.
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Old 10-01-2016, 07:51 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by PSUColonel View Post
lol...I'd actually be OK with that...to me, a smarter AI increases OOTP's value right there. Two minutes for a day (at lest to me) doesn't seem so bad if the trade off is a much more intelligent opponent and therefore much better solo experience. Actual day = 24 hours....OOTP Day = 2 minutes..not bad to me.

Those of us who, like me, play out all our games one day at a time, a slower speed, day to day, isn't a bad thing or a hindrance.
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Old 10-02-2016, 03:45 AM   #92
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It's interesting that some claim there are essentially no AI issues, while Markus said "we could improve the AI in a meaningful way (so that people would actually notice the effect)"
Honestly ... in all of this, I'm actually really thrilled to hear Markus actually say that he understands that the AI could be significantly improved.

Despite long-running denials by the 'gatekeepers of OOTP' -- the man who produces the game says the AI can be significantly improved.

He also says that significant improvements would come at a cost. The cost would be slower processing speed.

These are facts. Facts as stated by the creator of the game.

An opinion would be a 'gatekeeper' saying that the game is amazing and needs no changes.

An opinion is also me saying that the game truly is impressive, but a request to Markus to simply consider shoring up some of the AI at the price of some processing time is not out of line. Im sure a balance can be reached.

For the record, I documented a list of AI weaknesses earlier in this thread ... check them out if you missed them.

With that being said ... last year, I complained about the "Bug Reports thread" -- saying that it filled up with posts and there was essentially no documentation of what was or was not seen. I am thrilled to see that my suggestion of a "Bug Reports Forum" was implemented.

I bought OOTP from maybe 2012 thru 2015 (4 years).

But, I did not purchase the game this year (due to the documented issues I spoke of not getting any response thru the bug reports thread last year).

However -- thanks to the creation of the Bug Reports Forum AND (especially) to Markus replying to this thread personally and admitting to the current AI operating as intended but less optimally as possible due to processing speed goals -- I plan to purchase next year's version.

The reason being ... I now know that Markus realizes that some issues exist and that he has made a business decision to keep processing speed as optimized as possible.

Users can agree or disagree with his decision ... but, the dialogue and the creation of a Bug Reports Forum - which helps to document issues and responsiveness to them - will certainly be helpful to the game moving forward.

The issue (for me) is no longer ... "maybe Markus and staff missed this issue or don't know how to code it ... and I can't get an answer" ...

Markus' statement now indicates the community can constructively move to a phase of a customer (me, and whoever else) requesting certain issues definitely be looked in exchange for a slightly slower processing speed.

Certainly there can be a middle ground on the above discussion.

Regardless the information relayed by Markus marks this thread a success and a great step for next year's version where hopefully a candid but fair discussion about the trade off for AI optimization vs processing speed can continue to take place.

Last edited by MKG1734; 10-02-2016 at 03:50 AM.
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Old 10-02-2016, 09:30 AM   #93
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I think all the patches this year are a testament to incredibly complex OOTP has become. Plus, keep in mind they have a shoestring budget and a skeleton crew. AND they've managed to keep the price stable for a very long time. (SOM computer Baseball costs close to $50-60, add in a few season disks and you're looking at $70 for a game that isn't nearly as robust as OOTP)

It's amazing what they're doing.

If it were a larger software company, I'd probably be a little frustrated. But for these guys, considering what they do and how they go about doing it, I will always cut them some slack and keep supporting the product, because the product is inherently excellent.

I wouldn't do that with anyone else.
I agree completely. I searched for years for a game like this. The fact that they fix any glitches will keep my support. God knows I have purchased some games and if anything was wonky the chances of it being fixed was
zero
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Old 10-02-2016, 11:25 AM   #94
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Can you folks please take your argument to another post so that those of us who are interested in the status of this patch can find it? Thank you.
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Old 10-02-2016, 07:32 PM   #95
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Sorry, but you are wrong on this. The threads introducing each patch are still available on the forum.
I stand corrected mate, but one has too look hard (almost like in this patch-thread, flooded with new demands and suggestions)
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Old 10-04-2016, 03:54 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by PSUColonel View Post
lol...I'd actually be OK with that...to me, a smarter AI increases OOTP's value right there. Two minutes for a day (at lest to me) doesn't seem so bad if the trade off is a much more intelligent opponent and therefore much better solo experience. Actual day = 24 hours....OOTP Day = 2 minutes..not bad to me.
The tradeoff would not be a "much" better AI. It would just be slightly better, most users would probably only notice the difference if they paid attention to it really hard.

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Old 10-04-2016, 04:00 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by MKG1734 View Post
An opinion is also me saying that the game truly is impressive, but a request to Markus to simply consider shoring up some of the AI at the price of some processing time is not out of line. Im sure a balance can be reached.
Well, as I just said, I already think we have reached that balance. We improve the AI every year, with the goal of not slowing down the game too much. In the last version we introduced multi-threading support, which did speed up the game and left us with more breathing room for better AI, which we have in fact used in OOTP 17 by improving all sorts of AI areas.

Don't expect magic with the AI, there are limits we cannot reach. Still, OOTP's AI is already better than any other sports game out there, I am 100% certain about that.
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Old 10-04-2016, 08:31 AM   #98
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Don't expect magic with the AI, there are limits we cannot reach. Still, OOTP's AI is already better than any other sports game out there, I am 100% certain about that.
Better than any sports game is not enough! We have to be above and beyond!! #MakeAIGreatAgain
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Old 10-04-2016, 08:36 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, as I just said, I already think we have reached that balance. We improve the AI every year, with the goal of not slowing down the game too much. In the last version we introduced multi-threading support, which did speed up the game and left us with more breathing room for better AI, which we have in fact used in OOTP 17 by improving all sorts of AI areas.

Don't expect magic with the AI, there are limits we cannot reach. Still, OOTP's AI is already better than any other sports game out there, I am 100% certain about that.
I do find this to be true, as I myself think the AI is currently very good...and can honestly say I have not encountered many of the issues some are reporting...this even with full roster & service limits in my minor leagues.

One thing of note: if a player wants/expects a major league contract, for some reason the option to offer a MINOR league contract has been remov d from the contract negotiation drop down. You can still offer a minor league contract from the player action drop down, but not within the contract negotiation screen. Some users may be confused by this, and think a minor league contract isn't an option to you, when in fact it is. Most players seem to reject it, but not all do. The are players who are often minor league free agents or players whom you don't want to pay major league minimum salaries to.

Last edited by PSUColonel; 10-04-2016 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 10-05-2016, 03:33 AM   #100
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Is anyone else noticing that the AI isn't signing International Amateur Free Agents?

At first I thought it was my settings since I enabled all the leagues, but then I created a standard MLB game and ran it to August 1st. None of the the agents were signed and (I believe) none were offered any contracts.
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