OOTP 17 Update #10 HOTFIX, Version 17.11.73 Available!

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Historical Minors.

What about them though? Just posting that isn't massively helpful to Markus.

[bwburke94]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

What about them though? Just posting that isn't massively helpful to Markus.

Historical minors feel a bit "tacked on". There's no way (in current OOTP 17) to use minor league players in any format other than real historical leagues.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

What about them though? Just posting that isn't massively helpful to Markus.

I think the majority of the issues have been discussed in the bug forum. Sad to say, Burke's 5% may be an exaggeration on the high side. I agree it's probably not a top priority. Then again, it was the big new advertised feature that really got me excited about 17. It's also something that will really set OOTP apart from DMB, Action PC and Strat. So much so, that we may even see that 5% grow.

[rpriske]

Some people are never happy.

This version is the best baseball sim game ever made.

It beat the previous best baseball sim game ever made... OOTP16.

Keep doing what you are doing Markus. Keep making the game better.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Let's just focus on the bolded sentence. Exactly what issues at this particular time need to be fixed? Please be explicit.

In game AI

Trade AI (this has been MUCH IMPROVED in terms of the human player being able to fleece the AI. I'm talking here about Trade AI among AI teams. Some of them make little to no sense and appear to just be there to "meet a number" perhaps based on the player's setting on AI Trade Frequency (Very Low, Low, Normal, High, Very High).

Free Agent AI (Would love to see FA AI from the individual player's standpoint improved. In other words, a bona fide MLB player who isn't signed by January 1st wouldn't just give up and sign a Japanese or worse an Indy League contract.)

Roster Building AI (in particular the still constant despite Knockahoma's famous and very funny diatribe practice of the AI signing and releasing players all the time.

In-Game AI. There are certain situations where the chance of something occurring should be absolute ZERO. Example: Team ahead by 4 runs or more... SHOULD NEVER, EVER intentionally walk ANYBODY. Again, it just seems things like stealing, bunting, pitch around, intentionally walk, etc. occur sometimes just to meet a number perhaps based on the player's choice regarding frequency of these events. No matter the player's choice, there are lots and lots of situations where the chance of a specific play should remain ABSOLUTE ZERO.

In short, AI...AI...AI...AI (which has been said a million times already)

An example, IMO the AI overreacts to player morale by almost always trading players who are angry/very unhappy. I turn off player morale and player personality because both provide me an advantage. As does the Rule 5 draft (the AI just doesn't plan ahead well), option years (same here) and the same can be said of every single option. The AI just doesn't handle it as well as human player above the age of say 12.

I'm sorry to be so negative so I'll add here. This is by far, not even close, THE BEST baseball sim I've ever tried (and believe me I'm a baseball nut and have tried them all) with THE BEST AI in all areas (save maybe in game AI) but this is a testament to how poor AI is in ALL baseball sims instead of how good OOTP's is. Although, again, I am VERY IMPRESSED with how the AI to Human trade AI has been buffed up. to the point now that when I set it Very Hard it is a very good challenge. Hats off for that improvement.

The game is so good, in fact, that the poor AI becomes so much more frustrating because after trying every baseball sim out there since the 1980's and always coming up wanting that this one is so close to being the perfect baseball sim. IMO, it it had FPS Sports type in-game graphics and really seriously beefed up AI it would, at long last, meet my all time dream of a baseball game. I still support the effort here as I've purchased every version since OOTP2007.

I know AI is the hardest aspect to program. But it just appears that because it's so hard it doesn't get the attention needed and instead new features get all/most of the attention.

Sorry for the length, but you did ask for a explicit explanation.

[Habsfan18]

Originally Posted by rpriske

Some people are never happy.

This version is the best baseball sim game ever made.

It beat the previous best baseball sim game ever made... OOTP16.

Keep doing what you are doing Markus. Keep making the game better.

Is it the best baseball sim on the market? Yes

Is it an incredible game? Yes

Has this version had its fair share of game breaking bugs? Yes

Is constructive criticism good for the future of the franchise and the general well being of the overall product? Absolutely

While I get that there are going to be some trolls that hate the game and call it a garbage product because Mike Trout went the month of May hitting .200 in their sim, there are many posters on here with genuinely good intentions who come into these threads and offer constructive criticism as to how the overall OOTP experience can be improved. I get that this is the official forums, but this overall "everything is amazing all the time and the game is perfect and you better not talk about any part of the game in a negative way" attitude that some posters have needs to stop. And I don't mean you rpriske, I'm talking about multiple posters I've seen in multiple threads over this past year immediately jumping on anything even remotely negative said about the game. Hell, I may have even been guilty of that in the past. We are all defenders of OOTP and in my case its my favorite sim franchise on this planet, but let's not let that blind us to the fsct that the game is NOT perfect and HAS had tons of issues that have come up this version. It's our right as paying customers to demand a quality product, and thankfully Markus and Matt work hard in correcting most of these issues quite quickly. For that we are all grateful, but people absolutely do have the right to voice their displeasure.

[mitchkenn]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I think the majority of the issues have been discussed in the bug forum. Sad to say, Burke's 5% may be an exaggeration on the high side. I agree it's probably not a top priority. Then again, it was the big new advertised feature that really got me excited about 17. It's also something that will really set OOTP apart from DMB, Action PC and Strat. So much so, that we may even see that 5% grow.

yes. this was one of the main features that i bought 17 for. i either misunderstood or was misinformed that we could combine our self created minors with the historical. i understand why it doesn't work now. But if the minors were expanded back to 1900 (unaffiliated i realize - but there were minor leagues then) that might get me back to pre-ordering. Toss in the Negro Leagues as an alternate, but equal, league where we could play them & majors, and then play a WS between them .... wow !!! .... as of now, i'm content with this version and will have to see what 18 offers when it unfolds.

[PSUColonel]

I would argue, that limiting the number of options (trade difficulty, frequency, AI evaluation, and many others) would help the AI in a large way. I understand people might like the options available within OOTP, but I also feel that by having the AI operate on fewer levels as opposed to dozens, would help the AI to act in a much more intelligent manner.

[MKG1734]

I have been explicit in previous posts and notified Markus/Matt in PMs in the past also have posted several bug reports and other issues with the AI. They've been well documented. However; for now, since Im at work ... I will rely on the previous answer from OldFatGuy.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

yes. this was one of the main features that i bought 17 for. i either misunderstood or was misinformed that we could combine our self created minors with the historical. i understand why it doesn't work now. But if the minors were expanded back to 1900 (unaffiliated i realize - but there were minor leagues then) that might get me back to pre-ordering. Toss in the Negro Leagues as an alternate, but equal, league where we could play them & majors, and then play a WS between them .... wow !!! .... as of now, i'm content with this version and will have to see what 18 offers when it unfolds.

I think it would be so cool if Markus, Matt, Spritze could get historical minors to work as advertised. But, that's such a huge if. The entire idea is just huge. But, Spritze already created the player database. Why not let us use the Spritze minor league player database with generic OOTP/self created minors? Sure, I would love to watch the history of the real Texas League evolve, but until that works, I would love to start in say 1921 and simply have access to the extra players Spritze has already created. Hopefully, this makes sense.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I think it would be so cool if Markus, Matt, Spritze could get historical minors to work as advertised. But, that's such a huge if. The entire idea is just huge. But, Spritze already created the player database. Why not let us use the Spritze minor league player database with generic OOTP/self created minors? Sure, I would love to watch the history of the real Texas League evolve, but until that works, I would love to start in say 1921 and simply have access to the extra players Spritze has already created. Hopefully, this makes sense.

I know some people might not want to hear this either (and I do not speak for OOTPD) but I wonder if historical AI is another layer causing AI problems. To me, OOTP can still be a very in depth baseball sim, but creating it in a way where the AI reflects modern day baseball, and it's rules in the utmost detail, would be the best way to go about doing things. I am not saying modifiers and such shouldn't exist for statistical purposes, but when you try to get the AI to act in so many different ways depending on what era you're in, I think you're asking for trouble.

Geting OOTP to work extremely well in 2016 & beyond should be the main focus of OOTP IMO. Specifically finances, roster rules, etc

That said, I do think certain rules should still remain as options. Namingly league structures, certain league rules,

[andyhdz]

To modify Churchill, “OOTP is the worst form of a baseball sim, except for all the others.”

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

In game AI

Trade AI (this has been MUCH IMPROVED in terms of the human player being able to fleece the AI. I'm talking here about Trade AI among AI teams. Some of them make little to no sense and appear to just be there to "meet a number" perhaps based on the player's setting on AI Trade Frequency (Very Low, Low, Normal, High, Very High).

Free Agent AI (Would love to see FA AI from the individual player's standpoint improved. In other words, a bona fide MLB player who isn't signed by January 1st wouldn't just give up and sign a Japanese or worse an Indy League contract.)

Roster Building AI (in particular the still constant despite Knockahoma's famous and very funny diatribe practice of the AI signing and releasing players all the time.

In-Game AI. There are certain situations where the chance of something occurring should be absolute ZERO. Example: Team ahead by 4 runs or more... SHOULD NEVER, EVER intentionally walk ANYBODY. Again, it just seems things like stealing, bunting, pitch around, intentionally walk, etc. occur sometimes just to meet a number perhaps based on the player's choice regarding frequency of these events. No matter the player's choice, there are lots and lots of situations where the chance of a specific play should remain ABSOLUTE ZERO.

In short, AI...AI...AI...AI (which has been said a million times already)

An example, IMO the AI overreacts to player morale by almost always trading players who are angry/very unhappy. I turn off player morale and player personality because both provide me an advantage. As does the Rule 5 draft (the AI just doesn't plan ahead well), option years (same here) and the same can be said of every single option. The AI just doesn't handle it as well as human player above the age of say 12.

I'm sorry to be so negative so I'll add here. This is by far, not even close, THE BEST baseball sim I've ever tried (and believe me I'm a baseball nut and have tried them all) with THE BEST AI in all areas (save maybe in game AI) but this is a testament to how poor AI is in ALL baseball sims instead of how good OOTP's is. Although, again, I am VERY IMPRESSED with how the AI to Human trade AI has been buffed up. to the point now that when I set it Very Hard it is a very good challenge. Hats off for that improvement.

The game is so good, in fact, that the poor AI becomes so much more frustrating because after trying every baseball sim out there since the 1980's and always coming up wanting that this one is so close to being the perfect baseball sim. IMO, it it had FPS Sports type in-game graphics and really seriously beefed up AI it would, at long last, meet my all time dream of a baseball game. I still support the effort here as I've purchased every version since OOTP2007.

I know AI is the hardest aspect to program. But it just appears that because it's so hard it doesn't get the attention needed and instead new features get all/most of the attention.

Sorry for the length, but you did ask for a explicit explanation.

Here's the deal, though, OFG. The guy that I quoted was going on about "issues" as if there were huge faults in this game that called for Markus to stop ruining his work, or whatever he said. I'm not a fanboy but I will not stand for inane commentary.

Godlike AI, historical minor leagues, even 3D stadiums and animated ballplayers, these are all ITEMS FOR FUTURE DEVELOPMENT, not issues. The game continues to grow, but some people would have the developer stop growing it and rewrite the program from scratch?

I'm done talking here; I've said enough. I will not stand for nonsense, however.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Here's the deal, though, OFG. The guy that I quoted was going on about "issues" as if there were huge faults in this game that called for Markus to stop ruining his work, or whatever he said. I'm not a fanboy but I will not stand for inane commentary.

Godlike AI, historical minor leagues, even 3D stadiums and animated ballplayers, these are all ITEMS FOR FUTURE DEVELOPMENT, not issues. The game continues to grow, but some people would have the developer stop growing it and rewrite the program from scratch?

I'm done talking here; I've said enough. I will not stand for nonsense, however.

Godlike AI.... nice re-frame.

If you think having AI simply work well enough to use EXISTING features is Godlike and something FOR FUTURE DEVELOPMENT, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Because what good is a feature like the Option years if when it is on the player gains an advantage by having multiple opportunities to fleece good to even great players from waivers because the AI didn't plan/handle it's roster management well enough and ran out of options for players? And the same is true with the Rule 5 draft, where once again the human player can find talent to scoop up that wouldn't be there if the AI worked better. And the same is true with existing features like player personality and morale, where again the human gains an advantage by utilizing existing features. Taken alone, each of these advantages wouldn't be much. Turn them all on, and I have yet to fail to turn even the worst of teams into World Series contenders/winners in less than five years. If that were realistic we wouldn't have teams like the Cubs go over 100 years without winning a title and many teams who have yet to even make it to the World Series.

Asking for AI to work well enough to handle ALREADY EXISTING features is asking for Godlike AI though, huh?

Fine, offense taken as it's clear that was the goal... belittling those of us that harp on the inadequacies of the AI.

Have a good day and weekend.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

Godlike AI.... nice re-frame.

If you think having AI simply work well enough to use EXISTING features is Godlike and something FOR FUTURE DEVELOPMENT, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Because what good is a feature like the Option years if when it is on the player gains an advantage by having multiple opportunities to fleece good to even great players from waivers because the AI didn't plan/handle it's roster management well enough and ran out of options for players? And the same is true with the Rule 5 draft, where once again the human player can find talent to scoop up that wouldn't be there if the AI worked better. And the same is true with existing features like player personality and morale, where again the human gains an advantage by utilizing existing features. Taken alone, each of these advantages wouldn't be much. Turn them all on, and I have yet to fail to turn even the worst of teams into World Series contenders/winners in less than five years. If that were realistic we wouldn't have teams like the Cubs go over 100 years without winning a title and many teams who have yet to even make it to the World Series.

Asking for AI to work well enough to handle ALREADY EXISTING features is asking for Godlike AI though, huh?

Fine, offense taken as it's clear that was the goal... belittling those of us that harp on the inadequacies of the AI.

Have a good day and weekend.

OFG, you and I go back aways, although you may not remember me specifically. You are a fine fellow, as far as I can tell from your posts, so I hasten to assure you that my animosity was not directed to you and I apologize for making it seem that way.

But yes, we will disagree with whether "the inadequacies of the AI" as you perceive them to be, and I don't discount your complaints, constitute an opportunity or an issue. Semantics, perhaps, but every day that I play OOTPB, I marvel at how well this game functions, including the AI. Yet, I do not deny that there could be some areas for AI improvement in this game.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

Godlike AI.... nice re-frame.

If you think having AI simply work well enough to use EXISTING features is Godlike and something FOR FUTURE DEVELOPMENT, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Because what good is a feature like the Option years if when it is on the player gains an advantage by having multiple opportunities to fleece good to even great players from waivers because the AI didn't plan/handle it's roster management well enough and ran out of options for players? And the same is true with the Rule 5 draft, where once again the human player can find talent to scoop up that wouldn't be there if the AI worked better. And the same is true with existing features like player personality and morale, where again the human gains an advantage by utilizing existing features. Taken alone, each of these advantages wouldn't be much. Turn them all on, and I have yet to fail to turn even the worst of teams into World Series contenders/winners in less than five years. If that were realistic we wouldn't have teams like the Cubs go over 100 years without winning a title and many teams who have yet to even make it to the World Series.

Asking for AI to work well enough to handle ALREADY EXISTING features is asking for Godlike AI though, huh?

Fine, offense taken as it's clear that was the goal... belittling those of us that harp on the inadequacies of the AI.

Have a good day and weekend.

No need to get so testy. Just debate your points in a civilized manner.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

No need to get so testy. Just debate your points in a civilized manner.

That's precisely what I've been doing, only to have my description of the inadequacies of the AI to be akin to asking for "godlike AI." That's an intentional "jab" at those of us that criticize the AI. As in, they are asking for something that is so unreal it's "godlike." And usually an intentional jab is often considered to be uncivilized.

But I'm the one being uncivilized.

This forum never changes.

[MKG1734]

Deju Bru:

I said in my original post that I had notified the site and the development team in the past about the numerous AI issues. The message was directed at Markus and Matt.

I dont necessarily feel it a requirement to respond to you, but I will to be fair:

Post #1: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...667-post1.html

Post #2: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...313-post1.html

Post #3: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...331-post1.html and http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...395-post3.html

Post #4: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...53-post52.html

Post #5: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...631-post1.html

Post #6: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...803-post1.html and http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...859-post7.html

This is only a sampling of issues with the AI that I have brought to the development team's attention.

Rather than spending limited resources on "new" material ... the development team would be wise to re-write much of the logic / sim engine.

A working game with less bells and whistles (see: options, new features) is better than shiny, new options built upon a shaky, weak foundation.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

Deju Bru:

I said in my original post that I had notified the site and the development team in the past about the numerous AI issues. The message was directed at Markus and Matt.

I dont necessarily feel it a requirement to respond to you, but I will to be fair:

Post #1: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...667-post1.html

Post #2: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...313-post1.html

Post #3: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...331-post1.html and http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...395-post3.html

Post #4: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...53-post52.html

Post #5: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...631-post1.html

Post #6: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...803-post1.html and http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...859-post7.html

This is only a sampling of issues with the AI that I have brought to the development team's attention.

Rather than spending limited resources on "new" material ... the development team would be wise to re-write much of the logic / sim engine.

A working game with less bells and whistles (see: options, new features) is better than shiny, new options built upon a shaky, weak foundation.

Thank you. Each one of these is your post/thread, and each is from more than a year ago; one is from two years ago. You say none of these concerns of yours have been addressed by now? Were/are they considered general concerns by a significant portion of this community?

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Thank you. Each one of these is your post/thread, and each is from more than a year ago; one is from two years ago. You say none of these concerns of yours have been addressed by now? Were/are they considered general concerns by a significant portion of this community?

They have not been addressed. I see similar posts on these topics to this day. Also, Matt stated earlier (last night?) that they had not done much work on the engine since Ive posted these.

For the record, I started the request for having the new Bug Reports FORUM as opposed to the old thread which filled up and never had any answers. Sadly, though, you see so many bug reports that simply go unanswered.

As for my posts above ... If these are not "general concerns" then it is for one of two reasons: #1: people don't pay enough attention to realize that they exist (they do, and they occur over, and over, and over, and over, and over) or #2: they realize they exist but they don't care ... which, well, I can't help that.

And - honestly - read thru those bug reports above. You don't feel they're major? You can honestly look at those and don't think there are major underlying issues? I dont think an honest analysis would allow you to make that assertion.

And, frankly, the above posts are just a very small sampling of the issues. I literally have approximately 100-125 similar issues earmarked on my computer with screen shots. But, the issues above - along with several others - were never worked on, so I stopped wasting my time (and money, hence, not purchasing the game this year). If you pay attention, more and more and more ppl are stating (and publicly!) that they won't purchase the game next year.

More concerning to the development team will be new purchasers of the game who don't have the same loyality that you and some others do when they see the litany of game-breaking problems the game now has.

It would behoove the the development staff to step back and devote full-out effort to fixing and possibly re-writing the logic engine to get the game on a strong footing as opposed to stacking up the house of cards higher and higher on the weak foundation it currently is built on.