Immersion in FHM (and other games) + little FHM update

[Sebastian Palkowski]

I did some reading in one of the epic threads about how sport management games in general should let the user imagine a living world. I totally agree with that, in fact that is, what I love so much about Football Manager. Of course it took FM a long time to reach that level they have now (and a lot of people work on FM) but thats not an accuse for us to not even try. Just start and evolve over the years.

That said, I know FHM 2014 lacked in this area. There are a few reasons for that, nothing I want to repeat again as I left the past behind me and moved on. More important of course is, that it was/is our main focus for FHM 2 (and beyond) to change exactly that. FHM 2 shapes up pretty nice (at least in my opinion) and even if it is still not the right time for more details (you don't have to wait to much anymore, we just need to wait for the next open Newsletter window to send out the details for FHM 2) I want to at least start a discussion on this topic:

Immersion, as it is called nowadays, plays a big part in our plans for FHM going forward. So what does it mean (for me)?

My favorite game mode in sport management games is playing day to day, play out my matches, do all the roster management, line/roster changes and player interaction on a daily basis, drafting, trading/transfers. Basically the way you play FM and EHM (or the old German football manager games like Anstoss).

Sometime last year I sat down and started to play FHM 2014 that way and quit frankly, I did not like the experience very much. It did not feel like playing a career in a living hockey world. With that in mind I started to think about what is missing and went to the drawing board for FHM 2. The results will be revealed shortly and before hopes skyrocket again, it is a start (even if I think it is a big step forward) to a long process, not a "FHM 2 has all the great features from FM now".

Just as a little appetizer, here are a few of the small changes, that make the game so much more fun for me to play:

- completely re-designed history (including team/league PO history) area.
- added info here and there (e.g. expanded draft info) that really adds to the experience.
- much better reputation tracking for GM/Coaches (e.g. rankings).
- coaches now have better ratings to make them different from each other.
- Historical $-values in historical leagues, looks much better now.
- a Game Rating that gives you an idea on the game performance of your players (a lot of work went into the design to get it right for all kinds of player types. Not an easy task.).
- Real game flow in the Match Engine, "seeing" (as in reading ) the puck movement via passes and moving, icing, offside, dump-in's, clearing attempts, breakaways (it is still in testing but reading the pbp when a player is on a breakaway in OT, that will be a lot of fun).
- a massively expanded news-text db.

I could go on and on but that has to wait until we make the official announcement. The newsletter (with feature list and release info) seems to go out on Friday, 20th February, maybe I will release the info before here on the board (I can't wait to talk about FHM 2, I`m very exited ).

Before someone asks, the match engine patch will still be released before FHM 2. The plan at the moment is to release it as a beta patch once our internal testing is done so everyone who is interested in it can download and test it. Feedback will be very important for us in regards to improving the Match Engine for the FHM 2 release.

[moore4807]

Sebastian,

That was beautiful man! If it was my post that got this conversation started hen I'm glad my big mouth (o.k. fingers ) worked right for once. This post gives me great hope - tempered by the reality of your words that it needs testing and shakedown time.

If we could just get more people to positively post and have some open dialogue without the snarkiness, I think we could make FHM as good as OOTP in 5 years or less. REALLY thats a big wish but your post is a huge step in the right direction.

I'd also love to hear what the rest of the team thinks on this topic too.

Keep up the great work!

[geckon]

I have to agree. I like to play in the same way (day-to-day management) and immersion is what needs to be improved. I believe that the steps you described will help to make the feeling better and the game more enjoyable

[Sebastian Palkowski]

It was your post.

For the rest of the team, I think I can answer that as well (but they are welcome to correct me when I'm wrong):

Malte is pretty much like me (we both grew up with German football manager games and later Football Manager and in my case EHM), so he is also very focused on the modern day, day by day, play out your matches style of play.

Cole comes from a OOTP background and is fictional player first. With Jeff I'm never 100% sure what his favorite mode is but historical is very important to him.

So both Jeff and Cole make sure we don't forget fictional and historical.

The part about "being as good as OOTP in 5 years": of course I hope that FHM becomes a good game (starting with version 2) but it will be (much) different then OOTP, as IMO we go into a slightly different direction (more in the direction of EHM/FM). But of course we will continue to get inspiration from OOTP as well, it is a great game on it's own!

Originally Posted by moore4807

Sebastian,

That was beautiful man! If it was my post that got this conversation started hen I'm glad my big mouth (o.k. fingers ) worked right for once. This post gives me great hope - tempered by the reality of your words that it needs testing and shakedown time.

If we could just get more people to positively post and have some open dialogue without the snarkiness, I think we could make FHM as good as OOTP in 5 years or less. REALLY thats a big wish but your post is a huge step in the right direction.

I'd also love to hear what the rest of the team thinks on this topic too.

Keep up the great work!

[Duranium]

Keep up the great work

Und wenn's irgendwann bei FHM2 einen Mindestlohnjob gibt (Recherche, Text, etc.), der nichts mit prgrammieren zu tun hat, meld' dich bei mir und ich ziehe sofort von Wien nach Hamburg

[moore4807]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

The part about "being as good as OOTP in 5 years": of course I hope that FHM becomes a good game (starting with version 2) but it will be (much) different then OOTP, as IMO we go into a slightly different direction (more in the direction of EHM/FM). But of course we will continue to get inspiration from OOTP as well, it is a great game on it's own!

Again what I was trying to say and missed the mark was I was playing/watching as it took Markus and Co. 15 years and several upheavals and fan discontent through the different versions, like you have experience with this past year to get OOTP to such a stable place and wide fan base.

The "5 years" comment was my belief that you could do it in one third the time. But of course I didn't say that exactly.... SMH!

Glad your chipper and excited - keep it going and don't pay any mind to the trolls here. We got your back!

[Hadehariast]

I'm happy to hear that you're investing more time and effort in the immersion factor, but as a long-time FM player, I hope you don't eventually force us into giving team talks before every game, media comments before and after every game, and so on. I know that FM doesn't technically "force" you into that, as you can have your Assistant Manager take over those duties, but they do a pretty poor job and effectively force you to do those things yourself if you want to have success. To me, they were always "grindy" roadblocks that slowed down my progress through a season, especially because I always ended up giving the same responses to the same questions, ad nauseam.

I'm very happy to hear the teaser about the expanded draft info-- I've always felt that drafting and developing players is one of the most fun aspects to FHM, and adding some more info there is excellent. I also have an idea for a news story that I'd like to see in FHM in the future:

When the season begins and the list of the top 30 prospects for the NHL draft is published, I'd like to see the game 'secretly' generate a list of the top 60 prospects, and then publish a monthly news story with two components: prospects that are performing well and could move up into the first round (ie. certain players ranked #31-60 that are excelling); and prospects in the first round (ie. #1-30) that are playing poorly and could move down into the second round. The way I see it, this provides some useful draft info inbetween the pre-season draft rankings, the mid-season draft rankings, and the final pre-draft rankings-- and also gives the user some rationale for why the changes that we see from ranking to ranking are happening.

Also, concerning the coaches-- will we see development in their ratings, the same way we do with players?

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by Duranium

Keep up the great work

Und wenn's irgendwann bei FHM2 einen Mindestlohnjob gibt (Recherche, Text, etc.), der nichts mit prgrammieren zu tun hat, meld' dich bei mir und ich ziehe sofort von Wien nach Hamburg

Mindestlohn? Da finden wir was.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by moore4807

Again what I was trying to say and missed the mark was I was playing/watching as it took Markus and Co. 15 years and several upheavals and fan discontent through the different versions, like you have experience with this past year to get OOTP to such a stable place and wide fan base.

The "5 years" comment was my belief that you could do it in one third the time. But of course I didn't say that exactly.... SMH!

Glad your chipper and excited - keep it going and don't pay any mind to the trolls here. We got your back!

I know what you mean. I talk a lot about this topic with Markus and it is great to learn stuff like this from a guy who did such a great job with a game like OOTP.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

I absolutely hate the interviews and team speeches for the same reasons as you so I doubt they find a way into FHM anytime soon. Better player/staff interaction on the other hand is a must at some point.

Regarding the coaches: yes, they will develop their ratings over the course of their career (much like players). It is now possible that player become coaches after they retire, another very small feature I absolutely like in FHM 2 and that makes it more fun to play.

Originally Posted by Hadehariast

I'm happy to hear that you're investing more time and effort in the immersion factor, but as a long-time FM player, I hope you don't eventually force us into giving team talks before every game, media comments before and after every game, and so on. I know that FM doesn't technically "force" you into that, as you can have your Assistant Manager take over those duties, but they do a pretty poor job and effectively force you to do those things yourself if you want to have success. To me, they were always "grindy" roadblocks that slowed down my progress through a season, especially because I always ended up giving the same responses to the same questions, ad nauseam.

I'm very happy to hear the teaser about the expanded draft info-- I've always felt that drafting and developing players is one of the most fun aspects to FHM, and adding some more info there is excellent. I also have an idea for a news story that I'd like to see in FHM in the future:

When the season begins and the list of the top 30 prospects for the NHL draft is published, I'd like to see the game 'secretly' generate a list of the top 60 prospects, and then publish a monthly news story with two components: prospects that are performing well and could move up into the first round (ie. certain players ranked #31-60 that are excelling); and prospects in the first round (ie. #1-30) that are playing poorly and could move down into the second round. The way I see it, this provides some useful draft info inbetween the pre-season draft rankings, the mid-season draft rankings, and the final pre-draft rankings-- and also gives the user some rationale for why the changes that we see from ranking to ranking are happening.

Also, concerning the coaches-- will we see development in their ratings, the same way we do with players?

[Hadehariast]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

I absolutely hate the interviews and team speeches for the same reasons as you so I doubt they find a way into FHM anytime soon. Better player/staff interaction on the other hand is a must at some point.

Regarding the coaches: yes, they will develop their ratings over the course of their career (much like players). It is now possible that player become coaches after they retire, another very small feature I absolutely like in FHM 2 and that makes it more fun to play.

Sebastian, you beautiful man! That's music to my ears. I always loved being able to hire a former player as a coach in EHM/FM!

[Jaurxe]

That all sounds great. Does this mean that I will be able to increase my "GM Rating" by starting off with a minor team, until my reputation is high enough for NHL teams to start offering me contracts? That was one of my favorite parts of playing EHM 07.

[Cole]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

Cole comes from a OOTP background and is fictional player first. With Jeff I'm never 100% sure what his favorite mode is but historical is very important to him.

So both Jeff and Cole make sure we don't forget fictional and historical.

I definitely enjoy fictional playing and can't wait to start a global league with teams from all over North America and Europe in one league in FHM 2 ... But, I also do enjoy building a lot of history on top of the already existing NHL history (I am more of a fast simmer than a day-to-day guy, usually)...

It has been really cool to see NHL history unfold, dynasties rise and fall, stars emerge and fade and old records potentially fall as I test simmed into the future with the new version.

I plan to have a blog to post on this topic as well soon too, once we start pumping out more information on FHM 2.

Some of the new history features and improvements makes this especially neat and I know Sebastian and the team will continue to add more in this respect too!

It is now possible that player become coaches after they retire, another very small feature I absolutely like in FHM 2 and that makes it more fun to play

This feature is very cool. Seeing Alexander Ovechkin become the coach of an U14 and then an U16 team after his retirement was pretty cool

[trident]

palli, I'm glad you recognize that sometimes that little part of realism and immersion in the engine goes a long way. It's a belief that the AI is smarter behind the scenes than let on and the faith as a user that goes with that, makes it all the more exciting.

I raised for BTS Football how well ESPN 2K5 did with a weekly roundup broadcast. I believe keeping up to date with what is happening around the league is something that is needed. I work UX architecture in my day job, so off the top of my head before I go to bed, here are some suggestions for immersion

1) Trending

- This seems to something that is popular in general around the web. To see a box in your UI that says who's hot and cold between teams on streaks and players on streaks would summarize a bit better.

2) Eligible Draft and Current Prospect Pool Tracking (per team)

ISS Ranking, World Junior tournament call ups, prospect development (junior clubs)
- So let's say someone's main club isn't doing well.. I personally get as much fun watching the prospects or late round picks begin to develop. This means following them before draft eligibility somehow and then beginning to have an attachment to them. Even if they don't make the pro's, its fun watching them try to make it in Europe because you know that player, you essentially put your faith in that player for better or worse.

3) Even if FHM gets to the level of text play by play such as CM 01/02 it'll be a major accomplishment and that game has been selected to the GM Games hall of fame. A must over time.

4) Not a great deal of clicks to see the player stats history by average rating or whatever the KPI is where users figure out where to find better players. Full ratings, player history stats, average rating same screen.

5) Spacebar advance always to keep the flow going. Similar to why people love Tab button on forms.

6) This last one has to do with the rookie generation in the future that it avoids some of the regens traits per draft class from the versions of EHM. This will help the integrity of online leagues and players not spending all their time scouting regens. (If possible of course). Maybe just take a sample window of a generation 10-20 years and how many of the 1st rounders, later rounds, top picks etc reach some potential .. more like a lottery but where the top players will likely succeed but scoring doesn't go up or down excessive amounts based on talent pool.. static distribution of talent pool but dynamic ebb's and flows over a generational period (10,20,30 yrs)...


Thanks for everything, GM Games will be covering as usual.

[Skadhauge]

I wrote my bachelor on Video Game Immersion and Storytelling - and while I focused more on graphic-heavy RPGs the theories behind it opened up my view on basically every game I play.

Helping people to create a little bit of storytelling in sports management goes a long way. Must say, I'm very excited for FHM 2.

[Bugsquasher]

Very Good Sebastian. That's what we all wanted to hear. Real effective progress. After checking the forums everyday with little information I now am very pleased to continue being a fan of the series. I can tell the wait is going to be worth it and can't wait to help with the match engine of FHM and purchase FHM 2. FHM 2 looks very promising.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by Jaurxe

That all sounds great. Does this mean that I will be able to increase my "GM Rating" by starting off with a minor team, until my reputation is high enough for NHL teams to start offering me contracts? That was one of my favorite parts of playing EHM 07.

Yes, you can start with a low reputation (your gm and coach scores are 0 anyway when you start) and work your way up the leagues.

[regnaD kciN]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

- Real game flow in the Match Engine, "seeing" (as in reading ) the puck movement via passes and moving, icing, offside, dump-in's, clearing attempts, breakaways (it is still in testing but reading the pbp when a player is on a breakaway in OT, that will be a lot of fun).

Before someone asks, the match engine patch will still be released before FHM 2. The plan at the moment is to release it as a beta patch once our internal testing is done so everyone who is interested in it can download and test it. Feedback will be very important for us in regards to improving the Match Engine for the FHM 2 release.

The "match engine patch" being something that will demonstrate what you describe above within the current FHM 2014, or something different?

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by regnaD kciN

The "match engine patch" being something that will demonstrate what you describe above within the current FHM 2014, or something different?

The Match Engine patch is a big handicap for us: we need to invest time into the old version that we could use much better for the new version. I know, it is only our fault to promise something so big but still, it is frustrating.

To answer your question: the described above will be part of the patch, the engine will have all the internal features as it will have in FHM 2. The new version will have much more pbp-text and we have to see how much change we make to the tactical system in the patch vs. FHM 2.

[Rich Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

The Match Engine patch is a big handicap for us: we need to invest time into the old version that we could use much better for the new version. I know, it is only our fault to promise something so big but still, it is frustrating.

To answer your question: the described above will be part of the patch, the engine will have all the internal features as it will have in FHM 2. The new version will have much more pbp-text and we have to see how much change we make to the tactical system in the patch vs. FHM 2.

Don't take this the wrong way but personally if I had known that the match engine patch for 2014 was going to take this long and take away time from 15 (FHM2), I certainly would have preferred just dropping the engine for 14...but that's just me. I just don't see the value anymore. I'm never going to play 14 again, even with the match engine. I'm pretty much just waiting on FHM2 now...

By the way thanks for the update!!!!!!! It was a good read and sounds like things are coming together, which is exciting.