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Old 02-14-2020, 07:32 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by dkgo View Post
It is nonsensical to suggest that the existence of Dorchester Town has any relevance to a discussion of balance in major professional sport

World soccer is dominated by oil oligarchs taking over teams.
Oil oligarchs spending their own money to give fans a better team is better than American sports teams pocking fan's money and create rules for them to field mediocre teams and still compete.

College sports teams don't pocket the profit to enrich the owners either. Most of them run at about even or losing money. That's better than the pro teams.



Going back to the Celtic case, the problem the winning is not as awarding is because the team is stuck in a secondary league with no way up, while losing most of its European games. There also seems no hope for the team to get better. Ajax dominates domestically also, but they have much more fun in Europe.

It'd be much easier for Celtic fans to enjoy the wins, if they are more ignorant about soccer in other countries. MLS fans can't feel too serious about whatever winning, unless they only know MLS and no European football. This kind of thing is possible in the US, not really possible in Scotland.
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Old 02-14-2020, 07:45 PM   #22
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The lower level leagues in the US are completely blocked out, unlike the typical pyramid system teams can go up and down.

In England it's definitely NOT the richest clubs always in top 20. That's how the US system works. In England, a club can go up and down a lot even with a consistent fan base.

The US "runaway rich owner" situation is way way worse, since it's all the top league owners are super rich, and they close out any chance for people to join them.

"Financial injection" is a topic that makes the American clubs look even worse. Not only are the club owners already very rich and not in danger of competition, they create systems to limit spending therefore there is no financial risk for them and there is no risk of them not being able to compete. American teams exist for the profit of owners. England teams exist to win, and other than American-owned England teams, most of them are either community projects or owner vanity projects, meaning most of the money go back to the club instead of the pocket of owners.


Rich owners is way less of an issue for sports than owners that focus on enriching themselves through sports.
I'm very familiar with the English club game, and I just don't recognise the picture you've painted. The Premier League has all the riches and none of the competition, and due to the money they make, they are indeed the richest clubs (with the most spending power) in any given season. Many are also risking their entire existence & history to do so.
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:31 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Skipaway View Post
Oil oligarchs spending their own money to give fans a better team is better than American sports teams pocking fan's money and create rules for them to field mediocre teams and still compete.

College sports teams don't pocket the profit to enrich the owners either. Most of them run at about even or losing money. That's better than the pro teams.



Going back to the Celtic case, the problem the winning is not as awarding is because the team is stuck in a secondary league with no way up, while losing most of its European games. There also seems no hope for the team to get better. Ajax dominates domestically also, but they have much more fun in Europe.

It'd be much easier for Celtic fans to enjoy the wins, if they are more ignorant about soccer in other countries. MLS fans can't feel too serious about whatever winning, unless they only know MLS and no European football. This kind of thing is possible in the US, not really possible in Scotland.
MLS fans can feel good about watching their team play and win games against an entire league of competition on near equal footing. There aren't any off-week fixtures. No one believes it's the best soccer in the world but a game in Atlanta is right up there with any game day experience you'll find. And most fans would agree MLS needs to get rid of a ton of ridiculous rules around designated players and targeted allocation money and similar nonsense in order to grow bigger.

Meanwhile Celtic has a wage budget the size of the rest of the league combined, beating glorified amateur teams in 6K capacity stadiums before getting crushed in Europe. I don't really see how any part of that is fulfilling or fun.

I agree with your point that the domestic league structure is flawed and causes teams to get "stuck" without any real goals to shoot for. If they were to combine the Eredivisie/Belgian/Danish leagues and then do the same in Eastern Europe maybe you can start boosting the TV revenue enough for some teams to progress.

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Old 02-14-2020, 08:37 PM   #24
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MLS fans can feel good about watching their team play and win games against an entire league of competition on near equal footing. There aren't any off-week fixtures. No one believes it's the best soccer in the world but a game in Atlanta is right up there with any game day experience you'll find. And most fans would agree MLS needs to get rid of a ton of ridiculous rules around designated players and targeted allocation money and similar nonsense in order to grow bigger.

Meanwhile Celtic has a wage budget the size of the rest of the league combined, beating glorified amateur teams in 6K capacity stadiums before getting crushed in Europe. I don't really see how any part of that is fulfilling or fun.

I agree with your point that the domestic league structure is flawed and causes teams to get "stuck" without any real goals to shoot for. If they were to combine the Eredivisie/Belgian/Danish leagues and then do the same in Eastern Europe maybe you can start boosting the TV revenue enough for some teams to progress.
The fact is Junventus and Bayern fans have no problem enjoying their winning ways, because they don't need to feel inferior like Celtic fans or knowledgeable MLS fans. "Unfair" doesn't stop fans from enjoying. It's the norm for sports to be competed without equal footing. International sports are never adjusted for population for example.
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:42 PM   #25
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I'm very familiar with the English club game, and I just don't recognise the picture you've painted. The Premier League has all the riches and none of the competition, and due to the money they make, they are indeed the richest clubs (with the most spending power) in any given season. Many are also risking their entire existence & history to do so.
Leicester City just happened not that long ago, and you have none of the equivalents in the US, where a team went from third tier to win the top tier in a short time.

Yeah, English pyramid may be top heavy and you may say that's a problem, but it's nowhere as bad as in the US. In the US type of system, Newcastle would never have been relegated, and Burnley would never have a team.
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:44 PM   #26
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Seems like the discussion has shifted a bit, but as Bayern/Juve/etc the only thing that matters is the Champions League where you are on even footing with the other contenders.
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:50 PM   #27
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Seems like the discussion has shifted a bit, but as Bayern/Juve/etc the only thing that matters is the Champions League where you are on even footing with the other contenders.
Teams definitely are NOT on even footings in the Champions League. Ajax and Porto types are definitely selling teams that are nothing like Barca or PSG.

If Celtics has been doing as well as Ajax in Europe, I am pretty sure its fans wouldn't have considered it "boring", and Ajax actually didn't dominate domestically as much as Celtics.

Just a few years ago, people were hoping that Brendan Rogers can lead the team to do OK in Europe, and I am pretty sure those were more exciting times. After years of disappointment it's now tiring.
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:57 PM   #28
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When Skipaway mentioned 130 teams in the Scottish pyramid, I thought I wonder how many teams compete for the English FA Cup well it boggled my mind. In last years FA Cup 736 teams competed for it, mind boggled.
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Old 02-14-2020, 09:05 PM   #29
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The big problem or should that be two problems they have is

1) They can't compete with the money that's why theres always rumours of them trying to join the EPL or trying to form a European league, think it was called the Atlantic League. They have/had Talent but can't keep it.

2) Is upping there game, no disrespect but playing Falkirk on a Saturday doesn't get you ready for playing Barcelona on a Wednesday.
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Old 02-14-2020, 11:10 PM   #30
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2) Is upping there game, no disrespect but playing Falkirk on a Saturday doesn't get you ready for playing Barcelona on a Wednesday.
I still remembered that 7-0 game a couple of years ago.
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Old 02-15-2020, 12:17 AM   #31
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I still remembered that 7-0 game a couple of years ago.
Celtic weren't the only ones they put 7 past that season, they put 6 past PSG. I prefer to remember the 2-1
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Old 02-15-2020, 12:34 PM   #32
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Teams definitely are NOT on even footings in the Champions League. Ajax and Porto types are definitely selling teams that are nothing like Barca or PSG.

If Celtics has been doing as well as Ajax in Europe, I am pretty sure its fans wouldn't have considered it "boring", and Ajax actually didn't dominate domestically as much as Celtics.

Just a few years ago, people were hoping that Brendan Rogers can lead the team to do OK in Europe, and I am pretty sure those were more exciting times. After years of disappointment it's now tiring.
Im not saying everyone in the CL is equal, but rather the super clubs that have no domestic competition like PSG, Juve, Bayern, etc finally are playing against some clubs in their own tier in something thats worth winning.
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Old 02-15-2020, 03:10 PM   #33
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Growing up as a kid in Canada I was of course a hockey fan first. The Canadiens won 4 straight Cups from 76-79, then the Islanders won 4 straight from 80-83. It didn't stop me from cheering for my favorite team (Leafs, sigh) then. These days, if the Yankees or Sox go crazy again and rattle off a bunch of championships in a row, I'll still be cheering on my Jays.

Dynasties are a good thing, IMHO. They give opposing fanbases easy "Evil Empire" targets to cheer against. As long as they are somewhat controlled by league economics. I get that football in Europe is more vulnerable to the "most $$$ wins" syndrome.

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Old 02-15-2020, 04:12 PM   #34
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Right. The Patriots were somewhat a dynasty but at no point did it ever seem like it was a foregone conclusion they would make the Super Bowl at the start of the year. How many seasons would they be 2-2 and we'd have to listen to talking heads say they were "done".
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Old Yesterday, 12:26 PM   #35
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Hey there have a ‘proper’ Scottish Premiership game on TV today, Kilmarnock v Hibernian

Now I don’t know how good it’ll be but still

(Pretty good actually )
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