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Old 08-03-2015, 05:50 PM   #1
SushamiBoy
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Randomness vs. Coded

Hey Cole! I hope you can look into this for me. I am very curious about this while playing other hockey games killing time while I wait for FHM2. In other games I have 2 issues with players and potential.

1) Let's say you have a player that has a 3rd line potential but you had him on the first line for a couple of seasons and he produced at a clip well above what he should getting 50-60pts. Will his trade value be reflected on the hard coded matrix or would it reflect the actual production? I ask because in real life, the other teams will look at what he did and pay to get him as such. Also his wage would reflect that.

2) Also does FHM2 offer the potential for draft surprises? I mean you look at some players in the league today and they were drafted in the lower rounds, but because their potential was less tangible not because they were not good, and the teams who took the risk got the reward.

Thanks Cole!
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Old 08-03-2015, 07:24 PM   #2
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Very good question!
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Old 08-03-2015, 11:38 PM   #3
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I know that in EHM:EA what you get paid depends mostly on your rep and attributes. In real life it does have a lot to do with production and i hope that this game will reflect that. I wanna see teams over pay for players because they had a few good seasons in a row. It happens all the time in real life. You get a guy playing with Crosby and his stock goes up higher then it should.
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Old 08-04-2015, 12:03 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SushamiBoy View Post
1) Let's say you have a player that has a 3rd line potential but you had him on the first line for a couple of seasons and he produced at a clip well above what he should getting 50-60pts. Will his trade value be reflected on the hard coded matrix or would it reflect the actual production? I ask because in real life, the other teams will look at what he did and pay to get him as such. Also his wage would reflect that.
First off, his wage will reflect his performance. In general though, the AI is going to always be primarily concerned with the player's actual ability. As a result the AI won't overpay for a guy that's being carried by his linemates. Otherwise, it would be far too easy to steal from the AI by pumping guys up and then trading them for the AI's legitimately talented players.

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2) Also does FHM2 offer the potential for draft surprises? I mean you look at some players in the league today and they were drafted in the lower rounds, but because their potential was less tangible not because they were not good, and the teams who took the risk got the reward.
Definitely! I was chatting with Jeff about this tonight and he noted that he ran a long-term NHL sim into 2042, and here's a few random success stories from outside the first round:

#127 overall, 2023: 3 consecutive 60+ point seasons with the Penguins
#155 overall, 2032: 50-60 point guy in his late 20's, on the first line of Boston's cup winner in 2040
#56 overall, 2036: in his prime right now, 70-80 points per season
#157 overall, 2041: coming off a 48-point season at 22

And not exactly a sleeper, but proof the best guy doesn't always go at #1: the runaway top player in the 30 years of my test game (10x NHL points leader, 7x NHL goal leader, 6x MVP, 2x playoff MVP, best season was 142 points) went #5 overall. The #1 that year had about four good seasons and was average the rest of his career.

To add onto Jeff's point, I have seen similar things.. There's a really cool screen in FHM 2 where you can go review old drafts and see the statistics of everyone drafted... I've definitely noticed years later some guys who went top 10 in first round who didn't really make much of their NHL careers and I've also seen guys in later rounds who became solid contributors.
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Old 08-04-2015, 07:17 AM   #5
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It's very difficult to code those logics correct, it will take years to mature a game like this. Just look at Football Manager and how well they have done with contracts over the years.

So much relative and connected logic comes together while getting a contract done with a player. It's really nice and just like real life. Players have personalities, you have the, I only sign for the most money type of players but you also have the I would rather play for my hometown team and take a bit less money type of players. Beside that you have agents personalities, your GM creates himself a personality and system players my like or not. If some good player has a bad agent you end up paying this agent lots of money - sure thing when a lot of teams are after this guy and your team isn't the most populair team interested.

In the NHL it's almost the same, this year you only had a few goalies and defenders on the open market, that led to huge overpaying some guys because they could go everywhere..
On the flip side, look at Ward ( former Washington ) I couldn't believe this guy was taken so late on the open market this year. I think San Jose stole a great player there while everybody was sleeping. Wished Philly took him haha, but we already have Simmonds which is almost the same type of player, tough in the corners and around the net and not afraid of anyone. I love those type of players.


Also I would like to see, good and bad GM's by the CPU. Like kinda Paul Holmgren type of GM whom lock up Vinny and McDonald for long term bad contracts and you'll never get them out of your system anymore because even if you take some money back on every other roster there are youngsters who can do the same as above mentioned players for only 2M a year.

Overpaying should be part of the game, sure thing when there is lots of interests in X players and less market to deal with.

I'll understand it's difficult to code all those relative logics together and stuff like that but I think in the years to come those eye for details kinda features will really make a game or your game becomes very boring after 4 or 5 seasons and you'll start a fresh one.
I always had this with older FM games, I never could get past 5 or 6 years because it was so easy to 'legally cheat' around and find yourself a system so you could buy all premium youngsters for 800K and sell them one year later for 10+ million. You could do that a few times and you have budget enough to create a huge club.
That's not what it is like in real life.
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Old 08-04-2015, 10:57 AM   #6
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Good question, there should be a 7th round guy scoring 30 goals a year or a top 2 defensemen. To many games are to predictable but what every franchise sim comes down to no matter how many features you have is AI roster management and the trade/ drafts logic, the whole game boils down to this.
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Old 08-04-2015, 05:34 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole View Post
First off, his wage will reflect his performance. In general though, the AI is going to always be primarily concerned with the player's actual ability. As a result the AI won't overpay for a guy that's being carried by his linemates. Otherwise, it would be far too easy to steal from the AI by pumping guys up and then trading them for the AI's legitimately talented players.



Definitely! I was chatting with Jeff about this tonight and he noted that he ran a long-term NHL sim into 2042, and here's a few random success stories from outside the first round:

#127 overall, 2023: 3 consecutive 60+ point seasons with the Penguins
#155 overall, 2032: 50-60 point guy in his late 20's, on the first line of Boston's cup winner in 2040
#56 overall, 2036: in his prime right now, 70-80 points per season
#157 overall, 2041: coming off a 48-point season at 22

And not exactly a sleeper, but proof the best guy doesn't always go at #1: the runaway top player in the 30 years of my test game (10x NHL points leader, 7x NHL goal leader, 6x MVP, 2x playoff MVP, best season was 142 points) went #5 overall. The #1 that year had about four good seasons and was average the rest of his career.

To add onto Jeff's point, I have seen similar things.. There's a really cool screen in FHM 2 where you can go review old drafts and see the statistics of everyone drafted... I've definitely noticed years later some guys who went top 10 in first round who didn't really make much of their NHL careers and I've also seen guys in later rounds who became solid contributors.
Thanks Cole!! You are such a fantastic addition to FHM.

I definitely understand the logic behind the trading thing. It limits realism very slightly, but it also prevents abusing the game which ruins the realism a lot more.

I was wondering if you or Jeff could show an example of that screen where you see a previous draft and how a few players in lower rounds? Is there a sort by points feature? I would love to see a screen that shows who had the most points in an entire draft class and seeing what round they were drafted.
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Old 08-04-2015, 07:17 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by SushamiBoy View Post
Thanks Cole!! You are such a fantastic addition to FHM.

I definitely understand the logic behind the trading thing. It limits realism very slightly, but it also prevents abusing the game which ruins the realism a lot more.

I was wondering if you or Jeff could show an example of that screen where you see a previous draft and how a few players in lower rounds? Is there a sort by points feature? I would love to see a screen that shows who had the most points in an entire draft class and seeing what round they were drafted.
That's definitely on my to-do list to show in a screenshot at some point . I just have to determine if I can fit it into a blog or just do it separately. Stay tuned! And yes, you can sort by points (or any statistical category)
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:20 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole View Post
There's a really cool screen in FHM 2 where you can go review old drafts and see the statistics of everyone drafted... I've definitely noticed years later some guys who went top 10 in first round who didn't really make much of their NHL careers and I've also seen guys in later rounds who became solid contributors.
This is officially the coolest thing about FHM 2!

I've been wanting something like this in OOTP for years so I'm even more stoked now. Silly, I know, haha.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:46 PM   #10
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Hi Cole,

Thanks for all of this. Small question -- can we amend the stats engine so that the game produces at a statistical pace closer to 1992? (a good mix of 100 point and sub 3.00 GAA players). Or, is the game hard-wired to produce stats in the current (dull) dead puck-oversized goalie equipment era.

Thanks
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Old 08-05-2015, 01:07 PM   #11
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Hi Cole,

Thanks for all of this. Small question -- can we amend the stats engine so that the game produces at a statistical pace closer to 1992? (a good mix of 100 point and sub 3.00 GAA players). Or, is the game hard-wired to produce stats in the current (dull) dead puck-oversized goalie equipment era.

Thanks
You can edit the average goals per game setting to create more league-wide offence if you wish.
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Old 08-07-2015, 10:34 AM   #12
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You can edit the average goals per game setting to create more league-wide offence if you wish.
And it works quite well too.
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Old 08-07-2015, 10:51 AM   #13
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And it works quite well too.
Indeed it does. I was playing around recently, and ran a "what if?" scenario, in which the NHL mandated better enforcement of obstruction, removed the fighting instigator, and did away with the shootout.

I adjusted the goals/game and penalties/game, as well as the fights/game setting. Then changed league rules to remove the shootout and return to tie games--but with the new 3-on-3 system. Such fun!
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Old 08-07-2015, 11:29 AM   #14
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First off, his wage will reflect his performance. In general though, the AI is going to always be primarily concerned with the player's actual ability. As a result the AI won't overpay for a guy that's being carried by his linemates. Otherwise, it would be far too easy to steal from the AI by pumping guys up and then trading them for the AI's legitimately talented players.
This sounds smart for trades, and fairly realistic most of the time. In trades I think GMs take into account actual talent and potential more so than just performance.

Free agency on the other hand (particularly in previous years) is impacted a lot by performance, and I recall the sims I've played not being very good with that.
Actually I recall FHM2014 had issues with this. I remember having prospects that played the entire year in the AHL asking for big dollar contracts. I hope this has been improved.
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Old 08-07-2015, 12:28 PM   #15
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Indeed it does. I was playing around recently, and ran a "what if?" scenario, in which the NHL mandated better enforcement of obstruction, removed the fighting instigator, and did away with the shootout.

I adjusted the goals/game and penalties/game, as well as the fights/game setting. Then changed league rules to remove the shootout and return to tie games--but with the new 3-on-3 system. Such fun!
I'm a huge fight fan... Is they're a considerable increase with it cranked up Smetana ? Do you remember the players who led the league in your test's by chance ?

I'm sorry to flood you with questions it's just I've been waiting for them to give the fighting aspect some much needed attention and eager to get Colton Orr back into the NHL on a contract =)

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Old 08-07-2015, 12:38 PM   #16
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I'm a huge fight fan... Is they're a considerable increase with it cranked up Smetana ? Do you remember the players who led the league in your test's by chance ?

I'm sorry to flood you with questions it's just I've been waiting for them to give the fighting aspect some much needed attention and eager to get Colton Orr back into the NHL on a contract =)
I can't recall exactly how the numbers ended, but there were definitely a lot more scraps.

The fighting system has been revamped and has been tweaked often recently. I'm seeing very realistic results. I'm also a fan of the fisticuffs, so I pay close attention to enforcers and their ratings--it's not an afterthought.
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Old 08-07-2015, 12:43 PM   #17
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I can't recall exactly how the numbers ended, but there were definitely a lot more scraps.

The fighting system has been revamped and has been tweaked often recently. I'm seeing very realistic results. I'm also a fan of the fisticuffs, so I pay close attention to enforcers and their ratings--it's not an afterthought.
Nice!!! Well if its any consolation, I was playing the free ware EHM over a decade ago while downloading your famous rosters that you put a lot of work into back in the day and if you say its changed and very noticeable then I'll take your word for it legend! lol
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Old 09-02-2015, 08:07 PM   #18
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I can't recall exactly how the numbers ended, but there were definitely a lot more scraps.

The fighting system has been revamped and has been tweaked often recently. I'm seeing very realistic results. I'm also a fan of the fisticuffs, so I pay close attention to enforcers and their ratings--it's not an afterthought.

This is good news! I'm also a huge fan of the fighting/brawling and very physical hockey (grew up watching in the 70s and clearly remember the old Broad Street Bullies, the Big Bad Bruins, and the big rivalry brawlfests of the 80s like Calgary-Edmonton, Quebec-Montreal, Boston-Montreal, Chicago-Detroit, Philly vs anyone.... etc.).

Regarding fighting and penalties - can you share whether there were any multi-player fights and/or line brawls - (I'm guessing full-on bench clears aren't in the game at this time?) - and how the game handles misconducts and game misconducts? I agree that this is an area that sorely needs attention in the realism department, particularly for those of us who prefer historical seasons. I'd love to start in the early 70s and play the whole decade forward to the late 80s - and fighting/brawling/physical play was at its zenith then. Has this area been properly addressed in the game?
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