Fixing the earned runs legacy bug should be OOTP's number one priority! - Page 3

Cryomaniac · 07-15-2010, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

So, folks, if you are able to reproduce these incorrect scoring incidents, keep a copy of your league files handy so you can send them to Markus for analysis if requested.

This would be eminently more sensible than creating 5 threads about and posting things which border on breaking the rules.

OldFatGuy · 07-15-2010, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

So, folks, if you are able to reproduce these incorrect scoring incidents, keep a copy of your league files handy so you can send them to Markus for analysis if requested.

But if, as it seems, the game characterizes a run as earned or unearned when scored, it is impossible for it to be done correctly. There is no need to reproduce it, as it's impossible.

Example: Leadoff batter gets a triple. Next batter hits a comebacker to the pitcher, who looks the runner back at third, then throws the ball 5 feet over the first baseman's head. Batter safe, runner scores.

There is no way possible to determine if that is an earned run or an unearned run until more of the inning gets played. If the next two batters strike out, it is an unearned run. If a batter later in the inning gets a base hit, the run is earned. There are other possibilities as well.

As long as the game insists on characterizing it as earned or unearned at the moment it is scored, then it will never be 100% correct. It can't be.

Cryomaniac · 07-15-2010, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

But if, as it seems, the game characterizes a run as earned or unearned when scored, it is impossible for it to be done correctly. There is no need to reproduce it, as it's impossible.

Example: Leadoff batter gets a triple. Next batter hits a comebacker to the pitcher, who looks the runner back at third, then throws the ball 5 feet over the first baseman's head. Batter safe, runner scores.

There is no way possible to determine if that is an earned run or an unearned run until more of the inning gets played. If the next two batters strike out, it is an unearned run. If a batter later in the inning gets a base hit, the run is earned. There are other possibilities as well.

As long as the game insists on characterizing it as earned or unearned at the moment it is scored, then it will never be 100% correct. It can't be.

This doesn't stop people campaigning for it to be changed though. If the game does indeed work like that (and I personally believe it does) then it would probably require a rewrite of the whole stats storing part of the database to work correctly. Is that possible? Of course, but it's not something that can be fixed overnight. It's probably something to aim for in OOTP 12 at best.

OldFatGuy · 07-15-2010, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

This doesn't stop people campaigning for it to be changed though. If the game does indeed work like that (and I personally believe it does) then it would probably require a rewrite of the whole stats storing part of the database to work correctly. Is that possible? Of course, but it's not something that can be fixed overnight. It's probably something to aim for in OOTP 12 at best.

Yeah, folks will still campaign for it. And I don't really blame them, after all, it would be nice to be correct. But I just wanted to point out that all the effort in the world isn't going to get it 100% right as long as the game insists on characterizing it the moment it scores.

But I'm ok with it. Heck, I've never seen a computer game yet that gets it 100% right. And it's the same for everybody in my league. So even though it gets some wrong, it does so for all the teams. So comparing my (perhaps incorrect) ERA to the other teams/players (perhaps incorrect) ERA is still a valid comparison.

The game also seems to have a problem with an error that technically "gets erased" and seems to keep the error intact. For example, a batter pops up in foul territory, and the 3rd baseman drops the ball. Ruled an error, the batter gets new life. He strikes out. For all intents and purposes for the rest of that inning, that error is now completely meaningless. But I've seen examples where that batter went ahead and made an out (thus "erasing" that error) and then later in the inning the team scores and the run(s) be incorrectly marked as unearned. Perhaps those types of things could be fixed without a total rewrite.

Killing Time · 07-15-2010, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by busterking

in all seriousness, we shouldn't even bring this up. Should have been priority #1 from the get go.

+1

Cryomaniac · 07-15-2010, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

So comparing my (perhaps incorrect) ERA to the other teams/players (perhaps incorrect) ERA is still a valid comparison.

That's why the game doesn't need to be 100% right. Of course, ideally it should be 100% right. There are also people who demand that the game is 100% right before anything else is done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

The game also seems to have a problem with an error that technically "gets erased" and seems to keep the error intact. For example, a batter pops up in foul territory, and the 3rd baseman drops the ball. Ruled an error, the batter gets new life. He strikes out. For all intents and purposes for the rest of that inning, that error is now completely meaningless. But I've seen examples where that batter went ahead and made an out (thus "erasing" that error) and then later in the inning the team scores and the run(s) be incorrectly marked as unearned. Perhaps those types of things could be fixed without a total rewrite.

Hopefully the example you give is fixable. Some of the other examples in this thread may require a re-write though.

Biggio509 · 07-16-2010, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BusterKing

shhhhhhhhhhh,

they are busy with new features for the game.

Important stats stuff is secondary, it doesn't sell the game.

In all seriousness, we shouldn't even bring this up. Should have been priority #1 from the get go.

Did you read what Markus wrote? He has been diligently working on this and has not found a solution and still hopes to get the game to reproduce real life. He just has not succeeded yet.

1. That means this did not have to be brought up for the devs to know about it. They knew about and are in the process of working on it.

2. From the sound of Markus' post it is a high priority. Just because a high priority or even #1 priority does not mean it gets fixed quickly. Somethings like imposing human judgment on computer coding are hard to do. Some problems are going to take more time to design a fix and still end up trial and error when your idea does not work.

3. Markus' posts indicates the situation is not we are too busy with our things to deal with the problem. This is not the only issue in the game and not the only thing people are requesting and IMO it is likely the hardest request to fix.

4.Devs work as teams so the fact someone is working on baseball cards does not mean the fact ER rules do not replicate real life has been dropped. You, I, nor Markus has seen a satisfactory result yet. So patch that do fix other problems that can be solved more quickly get released rather than waiting for the bigger problem to be solved.

I would like to see this perfect too but we have to realize in an engine as complex as OOTP this is not easy and it may take some time. Honestly, OOTP has responded to more request than other game I have played. OOTP and Paradox seem to be the two best companies I know at fixing problems and updating their games. Although, I wonder if paradox would do this if the very active mod community was not often fixing their problems and getting involved in beta testing. No game is error free but OOTP has made sure the errors do not make the game unplayable for most people. Some companies don't care that you bought the product and found it lacking. They might make it more realistic in an expansion, a certain company I have some games from, or next year. OOTP has not taken the route of well you thought our game sucked? For only $10.00 or $20.00 more you can get your complaints fixed in the new expansion that fixes all the bugs and issues with playability the original had and introduces 100 more that we will address in the next $20 expansion.

jmknpk2 · 07-16-2010, 03:42 AM

I do think this should be a priority. I haven't noticed the problem because I don't keep close watch on earned/unearned. I assume they are done correctly and it doesn't bother me too terribly much if they aren't.

But until it gets fixed, I offer an imaginative, and not so easy to swallow workaround. I think the situation people are griping about is:

The play-by-play describes an inning where some run(s) should have been scored as earned or un-earned. But the actual scorekeeping shows an opposite record in the box score and player stats, etc...

Now, it is entirely possible that an inning could have been played that matched the earned/unearned results in the box-score and stats. Even though the text didn't describe that inning, I'm assuming that in this universe it was possible that an inning could have existed that matched the box score results.

So, look at this problem from a different angle and imagine that the play that occurred on the field matched the results reflected in the box score and player stats. Then imagine just a little bit further that the play-by-play announcer got things wrong. He was busy worrying about ordering a beer and turned around when the play happened. Then he faced back around to the diamond and made up a play for announcing that didn't match what happened on the field.

I know that doesn't fix the problem and probably won't placate most of those up in arms. But it might help some think of it as a bad play-by-play text issue instead of a can't keep score properly issue.

When I see a lead-off batter make an out and the announcer says there are two down, it gripes me a bit. But I just realize for a second that it's only a game and somehow an error has gotten into the game play-by-play text. That doesn't really bother me too much and I get right back into the game.

Biggio509 · 07-16-2010, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmknpk2

Then imagine just a little bit further that the play-by-play announcer got things wrong. He was busy worrying about ordering a beer and turned around when the play happened.

PBP announcer? All I have to do is imagining the official scorer calling something a routine play that was not or just flubbing the call! I think this happens sufficiently enough in the real world. Don't the league actually review the official scorer's decisions and sometimes over turn errors or earned runs. I know they have called some no hitters from the early years of baseball not to be no hitters.

Just be a fan or manager when you are convinced that your favorite player or anyone on the team got a hit and the scorer suddenly calls it a routine play and takes that hit away.

Cryomaniac · 07-16-2010, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggio509

Don't the league actually review the official scorer's decisions and sometimes over turn errors or earned runs.

If they don't then they damn well should.

/is still miffed about Sabathia's no-hitter that wasn't.

//Is a Sabathia fan rather than a Yankees fan.

07-16-2010, 03:42 AM	#48
jmknpk2 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 982	I do think this should be a priority. I haven't noticed the problem because I don't keep close watch on earned/unearned. I assume they are done correctly and it doesn't bother me too terribly much if they aren't. But until it gets fixed, I offer an imaginative, and not so easy to swallow workaround. I think the situation people are griping about is: The play-by-play describes an inning where some run(s) should have been scored as earned or un-earned. But the actual scorekeeping shows an opposite record in the box score and player stats, etc... Now, it is entirely possible that an inning could have been played that matched the earned/unearned results in the box-score and stats. Even though the text didn't describe that inning, I'm assuming that in this universe it was possible that an inning could have existed that matched the box score results. So, look at this problem from a different angle and imagine that the play that occurred on the field matched the results reflected in the box score and player stats. Then imagine just a little bit further that the play-by-play announcer got things wrong. He was busy worrying about ordering a beer and turned around when the play happened. Then he faced back around to the diamond and made up a play for announcing that didn't match what happened on the field. I know that doesn't fix the problem and probably won't placate most of those up in arms. But it might help some think of it as a bad play-by-play text issue instead of a can't keep score properly issue. When I see a lead-off batter make an out and the announcer says there are two down, it gripes me a bit. But I just realize for a second that it's only a game and somehow an error has gotten into the game play-by-play text. That doesn't really bother me too much and I get right back into the game. Last edited by jmknpk2; 07-16-2010 at 03:45 AM.