Never slide into first

Leo_The_Lip · 10-30-2014, 10:18 AM

Bill Nye says so:

Bill Nye says Eric Hosmer messed up by sliding into first and MLB.com's Statcast agrees | MLB.com

I've been appalled and frustrated at how people don't understand this, going back almost a half-century to my HS years. I remember arguing with a friend (who went on to be a HS coach) that you should never slide into first.

"But you want to get there faster! So you slide, like when you steal second," he said.

"You slide into second because you can't overrun it, not because you can get there faster. If you could overrun second, you'd never slide."

Thank you, again Science Guy.

Splitter24 · 10-30-2014, 10:59 AM

Well, not never. On that play, heck no. On 90% of the plays I see where a guy is diving into first base, heck no.

But if you see the first baseman go airborne or pulled off the bag toward the grass, then hit the deck to eliminate the sweep tag.

Airdrop01 · 10-30-2014, 11:30 AM

That was huge.

But, in a tag play (game 6 for example Escobar slid by tag attempt by Belt) it is often the right play.

ra7c7er · 10-30-2014, 06:50 PM

On a tag like that play sliding is the best option.

People mess up sliding into first base by sliding onto the bag like they do when going to second. When sliding into first you should slide with your foot just to the right (foul territory side) of the bag that way you aren't jamming your foot into the bag. then as you are sliding you make contact with your leg, torso, or hands/arm. At least that's what I was taught playing LL and HS. Never once was I ever told sliding was faster than running through that just seems silly.

Ragnar · 10-31-2014, 12:39 PM

Sliding into first will never get you there faster. A well timed dive, if low enough, might get you there a fraction of a second faster.

rudel.dietrich · 10-31-2014, 02:59 PM

If I was a manager I would fine players 5k for every head first slide period. Sliding head first is not the proper way to EVER slide and leads to a higher increased chance of hand, finger and wrist injuries.
In high school baseball we got laps around the field for the transgression of the head first slide.

Ragnar · 11-01-2014, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

If I was a manager I would fine players 5k for every head first slide period. Sliding head first is not the proper way to EVER slide and leads to a higher increased chance of hand, finger and wrist injuries.
In high school baseball we got laps around the field for the transgression of the head first slide.

Did you ever play baseball? I am sure you have. Sliding head first is certainly not something any runner looks forward to doing. I know it was something I've always tried to avoid doing. But on occasion a head first dive can beat a throw. Like when stealing bases.

Goody · 11-01-2014, 08:03 PM

I think it depends, ultimately, on whether the player is better at diving/sliding or striding. (injury chance being taken out of the factor).

In the WS game 7 example, he didn't have very good timing and he drug his body across the dirt.

Myself, I'm a long legged guy for my height and can cover more ground striding forward than I can diving. Everyone's different.

MarkInCincy · 11-01-2014, 09:36 PM

In 20 years of playing baseball and another 15 of softball the only times I have ever slid feet first is to break up a double play. Personally I can pull my arm/hand away from a tag easier and better than my foot/leg and it was just a personal preference

Leo_The_Lip · 11-05-2014, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Sliding into first will never get you there faster. A well timed dive, if low enough, might get you there a fraction of a second faster.

Bill Nye proved that you are wrong. It is impossible for what you assert to be true.

I omitted the 'avoid a tag' situation because it is a special situation in which the force is off and the play has turned into an unusual situation.

I'm glad this also morphed into the head first slide debate, another overused tactic that is worthy of discussion. Unlike the slide into first, however, I'm not aware of a physics argument which can prove or disprove either side of this debate.

I think the key to sliding fast is to begin the slide as close as possible to the base, so it is possible head first might get you there faster. However, grabbing the base to hang on is likely harder to do that than with a professional hook slide.

Leo_The_Lip · 11-05-2014, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ra7c7er

Never once was I ever told sliding was faster than running through that just seems silly.

See Ragnar's post for the type of person I'm talking about.

Carlton · 11-06-2014, 09:08 AM

As an aside

When sliding into second, I believe Bob Bescher the great deadball speedster perfected the hook slide.

He would look to see if the ball was coming high or low from the C. If low he would hook to the outside of the bag, if high the inside.

Amazingly, even the speedsters I see in MLB nowadays will slide to the center of the bag no matter what, and many go head first.

Ragnar · 11-10-2014, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo_The_Lip

Bill Nye proved that you are wrong. It is impossible for what you assert to be true.

I omitted the 'avoid a tag' situation because it is a special situation in which the force is off and the play has turned into an unusual situation.

I'm glad this also morphed into the head first slide debate, another overused tactic that is worthy of discussion. Unlike the slide into first, however, I'm not aware of a physics argument which can prove or disprove either side of this debate.

I think the key to sliding fast is to begin the slide as close as possible to the base, so it is possible head first might get you there faster. However, grabbing the base to hang on is likely harder to do that than with a professional hook slide.

I said "might" get you there a fraction of a second faster depending on the dive. The problem is the base is on the ground and it might take a bit longer just to fall. I have never slid into first. Chances are I am not getting there any quicker unless the base was waist high.

My main point is a head first dive is faster than a feet first slide. At least in my opinion, through my experience, it is. That could be a direct result of me not being that good at feet first sliding.

Faroo6 · 11-20-2014, 10:07 PM

Sports Science did this.
Sport Science: Run Or Slide? - ESPN Video - ESPN

They don't mention it in the video, but you can see when they overlay the runners that a perfectly timed head first dive gets you to the base faster although not by much, talking thousandths of a second. However, the risk associated with it and the room for error makes it pretty dumb to go head first. You should only dive if the first baseman leaves the bag and is attempting a tag.

10-30-2014, 10:18 AM	#1
Leo_The_Lip All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,703	Never slide into first Bill Nye says so: Bill Nye says Eric Hosmer messed up by sliding into first and MLB.com's Statcast agrees \| MLB.com I've been appalled and frustrated at how people don't understand this, going back almost a half-century to my HS years. I remember arguing with a friend (who went on to be a HS coach) that you should never slide into first. "But you want to get there faster! So you slide, like when you steal second," he said. "You slide into second because you can't overrun it, not because you can get there faster. If you could overrun second, you'd never slide." Thank you, again Science Guy. __________________ "My name will live forever" - Anonymous

10-30-2014, 10:59 AM	#2
Splitter24 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Willsboro, NY Posts: 2,897	Well, not never. On that play, heck no. On 90% of the plays I see where a guy is diving into first base, heck no. But if you see the first baseman go airborne or pulled off the bag toward the grass, then hit the deck to eliminate the sweep tag. __________________ Currently Reading: The Sympathizer by Viet Thanh Nguyen "Well, the game is afoot. I’ll take anal bum cover for 7,000." - "Sean Connery" SNL Celebrity Jeopardy R.I.P. Tommy Holmes 1917-2008

11-01-2014, 08:03 PM	#8
Goody Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South Korea Posts: 3,530	I think it depends, ultimately, on whether the player is better at diving/sliding or striding. (injury chance being taken out of the factor). In the WS game 7 example, he didn't have very good timing and he drug his body across the dirt. Myself, I'm a long legged guy for my height and can cover more ground striding forward than I can diving. Everyone's different. __________________ In the past: Laseron Baseball Association creator. Present: I am Rezulm on PT and OOTP Discord. Future: I wish it was the past. Last edited by Goody; 11-01-2014 at 08:06 PM.

11-01-2014, 09:36 PM	#9
MarkInCincy All Star Reserve Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Cincinnait, OH (WestSider) Posts: 657	In 20 years of playing baseball and another 15 of softball the only times I have ever slid feet first is to break up a double play. Personally I can pull my arm/hand away from a tag easier and better than my foot/leg and it was just a personal preference __________________ "A baseball fan has the digestive apparatus of a billy goat. He can, and does, devour any set of statistics with insatiable appetite and then nuzzles hungrily for more." - Sportswriter Arthur Daley "Who says there's an unemployment problem in this country? Just take the five percent unemployed and give them a baseball stat to follow." - Outfielder Andy Van Slyke

10-30-2014, 11:30 AM	#3
Airdrop01 All Star Starter Join Date: May 2009 Location: Lenexa, KS / Wilson, WY Posts: 1,354	That was huge. But, in a tag play (game 6 for example Escobar slid by tag attempt by Belt) it is often the right play.

10-30-2014, 06:50 PM	#4
ra7c7er All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 1,098	On a tag like that play sliding is the best option. People mess up sliding into first base by sliding onto the bag like they do when going to second. When sliding into first you should slide with your foot just to the right (foul territory side) of the bag that way you aren't jamming your foot into the bag. then as you are sliding you make contact with your leg, torso, or hands/arm. At least that's what I was taught playing LL and HS. Never once was I ever told sliding was faster than running through that just seems silly.

10-31-2014, 12:39 PM	#5
Ragnar Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,009	Sliding into first will never get you there faster. A well timed dive, if low enough, might get you there a fraction of a second faster.

10-31-2014, 02:59 PM	#6
rudel.dietrich Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Zürich, Switzerland Posts: 8,608 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	If I was a manager I would fine players 5k for every head first slide period. Sliding head first is not the proper way to EVER slide and leads to a higher increased chance of hand, finger and wrist injuries. In high school baseball we got laps around the field for the transgression of the head first slide.

11-06-2014, 09:08 AM	#12
Carlton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 3,765	As an aside When sliding into second, I believe Bob Bescher the great deadball speedster perfected the hook slide. He would look to see if the ball was coming high or low from the C. If low he would hook to the outside of the bag, if high the inside. Amazingly, even the speedsters I see in MLB nowadays will slide to the center of the bag no matter what, and many go head first.