Dumbest article ever in regards to OOTP

[lotr13]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Except all the news articles and other write ups will say "him", "his", "he" etc because those things are hard coded into the game.

It's not so simple

I noticed on the announcement of Home Run Derby winner "their" is used.

Personally, I'd like to run a women's league, but I understand I'm probably in the minority.

[lotr13]

Originally Posted by andyhdz

We should have female owners as well.

I don't know if new female owners will show up, but you can edit the gender of existing owners. I always make Joan Payson the owner of the Mets in my Continental League sims.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by lotr13

I noticed on the announcement of Home Run Derby winner "their" is used.

Personally, I'd like to run a women's league, but I understand I'm probably in the minority.

I created a Peruvian baseball league.
That's probably also in the minority

But, I was sure able to do it.

[Sweed]

And you can also create a women's league. There is nothing stopping anyone from doing it. It was possible even back in v18 and noted in the thread I linked to.

Just have to happy with pretending "he" "his" says "she" or "her".

It's Markus that has said the hard coding would take too much work to change. It is still up to him.

Now if that means a lot of coding time that could be spent improving other areas well.. some are going to object. Nothing to do with equal rights, anti women, misogynist, etc.

Has to do with how coding time is spent improving the game. IMHO the number of users that would actually use the feature would not justify the time spent. But again that is up to the powers that be. If they add it? I won't agree but, it's their game. Won't be the first or last time something was added or not added that I did not agree with.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Sweed

It's Markus that has said the hard coding would take too much work to change. It is still up to him.

Now if that means a lot of coding time that could be spent improving other areas well.. some are going to object. Nothing to do with equal rights, anti women, misogynist, etc.

What if deciding that adding women into the game is "too much work" is exactly what "equal rights, anti women, misogynist, etc" is?

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by Johnny Case

There's no escaping the disease of Wokeness. . .

Why aren't there any "women or other marginalized groups" (women are marginalized???) in OOTP? Ummmm, maybe because there's never been a professional female yet (born female, that is) who could even hit .100 against Aaron Sanchez.

Just think what he would have wrote about mods to have negro leagues!

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

No, actually it's a major issue. First, I don't think it's safe to say that women develop as baseball players in the same way that men do, for the very simple reason that we don't have any data to support that conclusion. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. We just don't know. But to say "we can assume that they do" is unwarranted.

Very unlikely upper body strength is huge in baseball. Women just have more difficulty developing that. Sure some women have more upper body strength than men but not at the top ranges of athleticism which is what baseball leagues represent.

The other effect is height. It is important in baseball. At 5'7" I probably never had a chance at baseball even if had been in the top 1% of athleticism and didn't need glasses. Few baseball players are under 6' tall especially after the mound was lowered and teams just got taller pitchers to even it out.

Sure women can play ball but you would find very few 6' + tall women with the upper body strength to hit at that level of a replacement player who could compete in the major leagues. Historically there just haven't been many women play even in independent leagues. There is the story of the woman who struck out babe ruth and there was a women's league but today you don't see women's baseball leagues you do have fast pitch softball leagues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_baseball#2000s

Apparently there was a women's league from 1943 to 1954. Still wiki only references 3 women to play in professional independent leagues.

Honestly few women have been involved in the front office either. The first wasn't long ago.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

And there would have to be twice as many first-name files.

But the problem goes beyond just pronouns and names and facegens.

Which is an issue. Questdog found a way to do it for the segregated error but had to create a new country for black American players. It worked for negro leagues and the segregated error but it shows this may be possible but not easy. You really have to change a lot to even generate race in face gen in a realistic fashion other than the modern era then you have to have separate name bases.

This isn't impossible but it is a business decision if your customers don't care about it, it isn't good for the devs to spend so much time when they could be giving players what they want so they can sell the game. I don't mind having female coaches and front office people or even females in the independent leagues. It is a very low priority to me. It would be lower than improving historical which is pretty low on the customer demand list because few of us care.

I would love better finances pre free agency, better play with reserve clause, an easier way to simulate baseball in the 19th century with contraction and expansion, bonus rules and better player generation pre-draft eras. I don't care as much as about segregation and negro leagues but I would be ok with that. I am in the vast minority I and others who would like this are vastly outnumbered by people who wanted 3d parks and better animations. The scouting revamps appealed to probably all of us. So I understand I probably won't get that because there are higher priorities to expand the game base. A game that would be perfect to me wouldn't sell as much as this game does. I am ok with that.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

What if deciding that adding women into the game is "too much work" is exactly what "equal rights, anti women, misogynist, etc" is?

misogynist: a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly predjudiced against women = a programming decision for a baseball simulation ?

Seriously read what you posted and tell me it's not ridiculous The sad thing is when people throw words like that around where it doesn't apply they take away the power of the word when someone tries to use it in a situation where it does.


It is economics 101

How many more units do I sell adding women's leagues compared to adding feature X.

Markus has stated it would be a major coding to change. He has to decide since his company has to do the work if it is worth it. So far he has said no.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Sweed

misogynist: a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly predjudiced against women = a programming decision for a baseball simulation ?

Seriously read what you posted and tell me it's not ridiculous The sad thing is when people throw words like that around where it doesn't apply they take away the power of the word when someone tries to use it in a situation where it does.

"Misogynist" isnt the only word used there

To be clear, I'm in no way suggesting that Markus is misogynist, anti woman, anti equal rights or anything else.

It's more of just a general bias against women in baseball

And, remember, bias isn't a dirty word. Or an insult. It's just a psychological reality. Everyone has biases. Even me. Even on this very topic. I've recently, consciously, tried to avoid always referring to players as male (he, guys, etc) and instead refer to them as "players" when speaking in general. But, I'm used to referring to baseball players as "guys". That's my bias. And that's the bias that I was referring to. When the game was created, the thought of having women in the game was..,well, there obviously was no thought to having women in the game. That's why it was coded as it was. That was the bias.

[frangipard]

Why doesn't the game create little league players? Joe Nuxhall was in the majors at 15, but OOTP does not represent this reality. OOTP is ageist.

Why doesn't the game create players with one arm? Pete Gray is a baseball legend, but the game erases him. OOTP is ableist.

Why doesn't the game create players below 5 feet tall? Eddie Gaedel has the highest career OBP in baseball history, but the game won't make anyone like him. OOTP is heightist.

Why doesn't the game let players play multiple positions? Bugs Bunny covered every position on the diamond at the same time, but this supposed "realistic simulation" won't let me recreate that. OOTP is speciesist.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by frangipard

Why doesn't the game let players play multiple positions? Bugs Bunny covered every position on the diamond at the same time, but this supposed "realistic simulation" won't let me recreate that. OOTP is speciesist.

Comparing women to a cartoon rabbit is great way to show that this is not misogynist at all. Good job.

[TPinrose]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

What if deciding that adding women into the game is "too much work" is exactly what "equal rights, anti women, misogynist, etc" is?

"to much work" can be read to mean "costs to much with no return on investment." Profit is the strongest bias in the world.

At any rate the article is just clickbait.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Little league ootp would be great! Sign me up

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

"Misogynist" isnt the only word used there

To be clear, I'm in no way suggesting that Markus is misogynist, anti woman, anti equal rights or anything else.

It's more of just a general bias against women in baseball

And, remember, bias isn't a dirty word. Or an insult. It's just a psychological reality. Everyone has biases. Even me. Even on this very topic. I've recently, consciously, tried to avoid always referring to players as male (he, guys, etc) and instead refer to them as "players" when speaking in general. But, I'm used to referring to baseball players as "guys". That's my bias. And that's the bias that I was referring to. When the game was created, the thought of having women in the game was..,well, there obviously was no thought to having women in the game. That's why it was coded as it was. That was the bias.

This is a fair response.

Too me this is an economic issue, plain and simple. You note when the game was created there was no thought of having women in the game. I take that as there was no ill will intended, it was just what it was?

The problem comes when there are requests to fix this and add women. Too some, anyone that disagrees has to be doing so with ill will towards women. It can't just be "I think it takes away from improving or adding feature X". It can't just be "you can already mod the game that way but have to live with "he\his" because Markus has stated it's too much work to change the hard coding. No you must be anti-women and names are called and motives are questioned.

If you read the v18 thread I linked you will see this. There are subtle instances of it in this thread..

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

Good. I also think that it matters. Since, you know, there are female baseball players.


So, you disagreed with one part of the article, and because of that it's the "dumbest article ever"?

I don't believe this is only about the coaches for you

And where did you get "supposed anger" from?

Yes, we can read things into posts not intended but here it "looks" like you are questioning his motives. He can't just think it's dumb because no coaches that have the same roll as the females are in the game. It has to be more...

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

Female pronouns should be added along with a gender setting. There are enough GMs, front office people, coaches and trainers to justify it.

FaceGen would be a bit more difficult since OOTP is at the mercy of facegen tech. They have trouble enough with male faces.

As for players, I would not be against adding them.
With enough time and knowledge of the core engine file and settings you can make any league you want including softball leagues that are pretty statistically accurate.

Football Manager added the option of players female managers many versions ago and it got the usual misogynist backlash that is to be expected.
Now it is just another part of the game.
And to be honest it being a part of the game does not really make it that different. The profile picture is a bit different and the pro nouns used to address you are different and that is it.

See, here we go. FM got the misogynist backlash and now OOTP is too? Well yes, what else could it possibly be?

It can't just be simple economics, players wanting areas of need fixed for the way they play etc. We can't be selfish and want our issues fixed and our features added? No ,it has to be something else.

How about instead from the add women crown we get "I hear your reasons for thinking adding women is a waste of resources. That you want your pet peeves fixed first. That's fine but I disagree and think women should be the priority".

I've stated in posts in this thread and the v18 why I don't think women need to be added.
It can be done with modding and living with wrong pronouns.
It won't generate much use compared to time invested (ROI very near zero)
It takes away from other things that need work
Once in another small crowd will want it supported in ways we can't even imagine.

None of it has anything to do with being anti-women.

IRL I thought Hillary would win. I voted for Hillary (not because she's a woman) but please, let's not let that get this point off track. I bring it up because I expected her to win, and when she did was dreading the "a woman is President celebrations". Why? Because women have lead countries for centuries. I thought the classy cool thing for her to do would have been to act like "why is this a big deal?" The only thing I can do that a woman can't is pick up that heavy rock, and even then there are a lot of women that can pick up a heavier rock than I can

[jeffw3000]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

What if deciding that adding women into the game is "too much work" is exactly what "equal rights, anti women, misogynist, etc" is?

This is the problem with this discussion. When you fall on the other side it must be because you are anti-women.

The truth is it is a business decision. The problem with women's baseball is just that it is not popular at this time. When Markus & Co decide to add or change something in the game, they have to look at how much work is involved for the change, and how much it will affect their sales. If it is easy they might make the change with little regard to whether it will grow their customer base, but if it is a difficult change involving substantial effort, then they have to be cognizant of whether the change will grow or maintain their customer base. If Markus had thought only 50 customers at most would play Perfect Team, then I am sure it would not have been added, because it would not be worth the effort when so few players would play it. It was added because it was seen as a way to bring in more money. Every decision they make has to be looked at this way.

At this time, women's baseball is just not that popular to warrant being added. In the future if it became more popular, then this could be looked at different. The truth is few baseball fans could even name one female player, past or present, and if asked most would probably say Dottie Hinson. I for one play historical and would love to see the AAGPBL represented, but the truth is their just are not many people asking for this and very few, if any, that it will affect their purchasing decision.

As has also been mentioned, because women baseball is not very prevalent there is not real data to use for developing female players. It is not very likely that women are going to develop the same as men, and just not be as good. Men are naturally stronger, and that strength is an issue in their development. It is crazy to say they would develop the same. Again if women baseball became more popular, then we could see more how they develop, but at present we do not really know this.

[Thundercrack]

Originally Posted by frangipard

Why doesn't the game let players play multiple positions? Bugs Bunny covered every position on the diamond at the same time, but this supposed "realistic simulation" won't let me recreate that. OOTP is speciesist.

Made me laugh. Needed that

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Sweed

This is a fair response.

Too me this is an economic issue, plain and simple. You note when the game was created there was no thought of having women in the game. I take that as there was no ill will intended, it was just what it was?

Yes, I'm certainly not saying the developers or the users are murdering women and burying them in their backyards.

The problem isn't so much with individuals as it is collective.

The underlying assumption is that "baseball is for men". Despite the fact that women play baeeball.

And, again, not trying to make myself out as better than anyone because I'm also not immune to it. That idea is ingrained in baseball.

The problem comes when there are requests to fix this and add women. Too some, anyone that disagrees has to be doing so with ill will towards women. It can't just be "I think it takes away from improving or adding feature X". It can't just be "you can already mod the game that way but have to live with "he\his" because Markus has stated it's too much work to change the hard coding. No you must be anti-women and names are called and baseball.

On both "sides" a lot of people have a problem differentiating between
SomeTHING being misogynist or racist or whatever
And
SomeONE being misogynist or racist

Those two things are very different.

Yes, we can read things into posts not intended but here it "looks" like you are questioning his motives. He can't just think it's dumb because no coaches that have the same roll as the females are in the game. It has to be more..

I'm very confident in it
Because that was only one part of the article
Maybe that poster (see, I don't want to assume it was a man) doesn't read many articles, but I guarantee there are plenty of articles written every day that the entire premise is much worse than one part of this article

See, here we go. FM got the misogynist backlash and now OOTP is too? Well yes, what else could it possibly be?

It can't just be simple economics, players wanting areas of need fixed for the way they play etc. We can't be selfish and want our issues fixed and our features added? No ,it has to be something else.

Simple economics can be misogynist (or whatever).
When someone is deciding that money is more important than X

Imagine if the game used female pronouns
First, it wouldn't be as popular. Guys would buy it, think some version of "what the **** is this ****", trash it in reviews, and it would die.
But one could exactly reverse the arguments
- There should be male pronouns! It's not realistic!
- You can just pretend
- That's unacceptable!!!

But if someone thinks that women, who play baseball, should specifically be included, the majority, being men, give that exact argument. And rationalize using stupid examples like Buggs Bunny.

How about instead from the add women crown we get "I hear your reasons for thinking adding women is a waste of resources. That you want your pet peeves fixed first. That's fine but I disagree and think women should be the priority".

I've stated in posts in this thread and the v18 why I don't think women need to be added.
It can be done with modding and living with wrong pronouns.
It won't generate much use compared to time invested (ROI very near zero)
It takes away from other things that need work
Once in another small crowd will want it supported in ways we can't even imagine.

These things are all value judgements
And it's that including women is not valued is what is being pointed out.

None of it has anything to do with being anti-women.

I actually think you're right

It's not really totally about women.

It's part of a bigger problem of excluding minorities (please no one say that there are more women than men. There are less women in baseball).
"There are fewer women in baseball so it's ok to ignore them"
That's the bigger problem
Whether it's women in baseball
Muslims in a certain school district
Or whatever

IRL I thought Hillary would win. I voted for Hillary (not because she's a woman) but please, let's not let that get this point off track. I bring it up because I expected her to win, and when she did was dreading the "a woman is President celebrations". Why? Because women have lead countries for centuries.

I didn't vote for Hillary
Nor did I vote for [Trump]
But, I disagree
A woman winning the presidency in the US would be a big deal.

Even if women being excluded from computer baseball isn't really about misogyny, there still is a lot of misogyny in the country. Most of it more subtle than like beating women to death in the streets

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by jeffw3000

This is the problem with this discussion. When you fall on the other side it must be because you are anti-women.

The truth is it is a business decision. The problem with women's baseball is just that it is not popular at this time. When Markus & Co decide to add or change something in the game, they have to look at how much work is involved for the change, and how much it will affect their sales. If it is easy they might make the change with little regard to whether it will grow their customer base, but if it is a difficult change involving substantial effort, then they have to be cognizant of whether the change will grow or maintain their customer base. If Markus had thought only 50 customers at most would play Perfect Team, then I am sure it would not have been added, because it would not be worth the effort when so few players would play it. It was added because it was seen as a way to bring in more money. Every decision they make has to be looked at this way.

At this time, women's baseball is just not that popular to warrant being added. In the future if it became more popular, then this could be looked at different. The truth is few baseball fans could even name one female player, past or present, and if asked most would probably say Dottie Hinson. I for one play historical and would love to see the AAGPBL represented, but the truth is their just are not many people asking for this and very few, if any, that it will affect their purchasing decision.

Thank you for participating in this discussion in a rational way

I'm going to address you directly because most of what you said is addressed in my post to Sweed

As has also been mentioned, because women baseball is not very prevalent there is not real data to use for developing female players. It is not very likely that women are going to develop the same as men, and just not be as good. Men are naturally stronger, and that strength is an issue in their development. It is crazy to say they would develop the same. Again if women baseball became more popular, then we could see more how they develop, but at present we do not really know this.

I will address this though
And i think i did earlier.

It's also not likely that a man playing baseball in a league in Tuvalu would develop like the MLB model. But I can create, I assume (if not Tuvalu, pick another country where baseball is not really played), a league there with
Tuvaluans.

[joefromchicago]

The people who should be complaining are the buyers of basketball and soccer sports-management games. In those sports, there are actual professional women's leagues that produce actual data on how the game is played and how players develop. If a basketball or soccer game doesn't have the option to include women players, then I'd say buyers of that game have a legitimate beef.