In praise of Sebastian and the conundrum developers face

mking55 · 10-02-2015, 08:25 PM

First of all, I would like to thank Sebastian for fixing the photo problem that I was making "such a fuss" about. It really was a bug and it really is fixed now. Unfortunately I had to be a "pain in the ass" to get something to happen but that is the reality. Also unfortunately, I had to be the only user who was on a MAC playing historical and using photos. It's tough to be the cheese who stands alone. Sometimes you do have to be a pain to get people to really look closely at things to get them solved.

As I've mentioned a few times, I worked as a developer for over 20 years so I have some idea of the problems these guys face. Our software (where I worked) could run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars so we had to be on our toes, as they say. The biggest problem is you get users who tell you of a bug that is not a bug. They've done something wrong, or the software doesn't perform as they think it should. That is not a bug.

I'm guessing here, but I'd say about 5% of the time it really is a bug. Sometimes you're lucky and everyone gets the same bug and it takes you about 8 seconds to recreate. Then there are other times when it is quite difficult to reproduce the bug. You have to do certain things in a certain sequence and remember to report exactly what you did. Your bug may be related to your setup. However hard it is to find, it's a bug.

What is the poor developer to do? Does he spend countless hours chasing phantom bugs that are really user errors? That seems like a waste of time to me. But if that is the route they choose to go (and I would get 99% of developers go that route), then it's up to the user to have all their data and facts ready and to be ready to keep pestering them until they are blue in the face. It's unpleasant for everyone. It's more unpleasant on a public forum such as this as opposed to just talking to customers on the phone.

Do you think I enjoy making a pest of myself? Really, I don't. However, sometimes I have to because there really is a bug and unfortunately I have to prove it before I am taken seriously. I will be right about the bug more than I'll be wrong, but sometimes I will be wrong.

We, as users, must report exactly what our setup is and what we did to cause the "bug" to appear. Developers don't have the time and money to spend chasing down all the phantom bugs out there. They must play the percentages to put our money to good use.

Although things seem to get heated at times, there should never be any hard feelings involved. It's natural for sometimes tempers to flare a little. So what, it happens.

And of course, all's well that ends well. And once more a big thank you to Sebastian.

Rasmuth · 10-03-2015, 09:52 AM

glad they got it resolved for you.

I knew there was a reason I never bought a Mac...lol.

Cole · 10-03-2015, 10:24 AM

I'm glad this was resolved for you!

Hadehariast · 10-03-2015, 10:27 AM

Everything you've done here is designed to draw attention to you.

You became a self-centred, entitled child when you failed to receive an answer after a whole ten hours (the horror!) to a question about getting a facepack to work. You seemed to assume that on a scale of 1 - 10, your issue was at least a solid, game-breaking '9' and that everyone should drop what they're doing, yell "CODE RED!" and jump into the bug-busting bunker to get right to work to avert this horrible catastrophe. Forget working on the trade AI, or fixing match engine bugs-- facepacks are critical.

After that, you decided to open a new thread, where you could *really* draw attention to your horrible problem. Not only that, but you decided to pull the "unhappy customer" card on Sebastian and forced him into making an apology he certainly didn't need to make. You're an unhappy customer after waiting for ten hours? I'm an unhappy customer who had to wait for two years for the final patch to FHM14, and I was never as much of a jerk to the guys at OOTP as you were. You even decided to be sanctimonious and say that you know "how to deal with question-askers in a prompt and courteous way" when everything you've done has been discourteous.

Finally, we have this thread. It's nice to pat yourself on the back and say "I'm usually right about this stuff, and I was right, and now you can see that I'm right, and therefore everything I said or did was entirely justified in the pursuit of righting this grievous and game-breaking bug, so let's just forget all about how I behaved!"

I normally keep my silence in these forums, but this type of behaviour always angers me, because small studios can't stick up for themselves in the manner that they'd want to when faced with an unreasonable customer. If I've stepped out of line here, I apologize to Sebastian and Co., but sometimes something needs to be said.

dave1927p · 10-03-2015, 12:21 PM

I'm glad your issue has been taken care of but going forward please use the same thread to avoid having 3 of the same ones. Thanks.

10-02-2015, 08:25 PM	#1
mking55 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boading, China Posts: 1,249	In praise of Sebastian and the conundrum developers face First of all, I would like to thank Sebastian for fixing the photo problem that I was making "such a fuss" about. It really was a bug and it really is fixed now. Unfortunately I had to be a "pain in the ass" to get something to happen but that is the reality. Also unfortunately, I had to be the only user who was on a MAC playing historical and using photos. It's tough to be the cheese who stands alone. Sometimes you do have to be a pain to get people to really look closely at things to get them solved. As I've mentioned a few times, I worked as a developer for over 20 years so I have some idea of the problems these guys face. Our software (where I worked) could run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars so we had to be on our toes, as they say. The biggest problem is you get users who tell you of a bug that is not a bug. They've done something wrong, or the software doesn't perform as they think it should. That is not a bug. I'm guessing here, but I'd say about 5% of the time it really is a bug. Sometimes you're lucky and everyone gets the same bug and it takes you about 8 seconds to recreate. Then there are other times when it is quite difficult to reproduce the bug. You have to do certain things in a certain sequence and remember to report exactly what you did. Your bug may be related to your setup. However hard it is to find, it's a bug. What is the poor developer to do? Does he spend countless hours chasing phantom bugs that are really user errors? That seems like a waste of time to me. But if that is the route they choose to go (and I would get 99% of developers go that route), then it's up to the user to have all their data and facts ready and to be ready to keep pestering them until they are blue in the face. It's unpleasant for everyone. It's more unpleasant on a public forum such as this as opposed to just talking to customers on the phone. Do you think I enjoy making a pest of myself? Really, I don't. However, sometimes I have to because there really is a bug and unfortunately I have to prove it before I am taken seriously. I will be right about the bug more than I'll be wrong, but sometimes I will be wrong. We, as users, must report exactly what our setup is and what we did to cause the "bug" to appear. Developers don't have the time and money to spend chasing down all the phantom bugs out there. They must play the percentages to put our money to good use. Although things seem to get heated at times, there should never be any hard feelings involved. It's natural for sometimes tempers to flare a little. So what, it happens. And of course, all's well that ends well. And once more a big thank you to Sebastian. __________________ Why do you live in Boading? Somebody has to. http://adventuresinjurong.wordpress.com/

10-03-2015, 09:52 AM	#2
Rasmuth All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Upstate Western NY Posts: 1,760	glad they got it resolved for you. I knew there was a reason I never bought a Mac...lol. __________________ http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=250426

10-03-2015, 12:21 PM	#5
dave1927p FHM Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Brantford, ON Posts: 2,888	I'm glad your issue has been taken care of but going forward please use the same thread to avoid having 3 of the same ones. Thanks. __________________ IN 1964 THE LEAFS WON THE STANLEY CUP :: IT'S ALSO THE YEAR THE CANADIAN FLAG WAS DESIGNED...coincidence? Last edited by dave1927p; 10-03-2015 at 12:22 PM.

10-03-2015, 10:24 AM	#3
Cole Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Fredericton, New Brunswick Posts: 2,685	I'm glad this was resolved for you!

10-03-2015, 10:27 AM	#4
Hadehariast Minors (Single A) Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 63	Everything you've done here is designed to draw attention to you. You became a self-centred, entitled child when you failed to receive an answer after a whole ten hours (the horror!) to a question about getting a facepack to work. You seemed to assume that on a scale of 1 - 10, your issue was at least a solid, game-breaking '9' and that everyone should drop what they're doing, yell "CODE RED!" and jump into the bug-busting bunker to get right to work to avert this horrible catastrophe. Forget working on the trade AI, or fixing match engine bugs-- facepacks are critical. After that, you decided to open a new thread, where you could really draw attention to your horrible problem. Not only that, but you decided to pull the "unhappy customer" card on Sebastian and forced him into making an apology he certainly didn't need to make. You're an unhappy customer after waiting for ten hours? I'm an unhappy customer who had to wait for two years for the final patch to FHM14, and I was never as much of a jerk to the guys at OOTP as you were. You even decided to be sanctimonious and say that you know "how to deal with question-askers in a prompt and courteous way" when everything you've done has been discourteous. Finally, we have this thread. It's nice to pat yourself on the back and say "I'm usually right about this stuff, and I was right, and now you can see that I'm right, and therefore everything I said or did was entirely justified in the pursuit of righting this grievous and game-breaking bug, so let's just forget all about how I behaved!" I normally keep my silence in these forums, but this type of behaviour always angers me, because small studios can't stick up for themselves in the manner that they'd want to when faced with an unreasonable customer. If I've stepped out of line here, I apologize to Sebastian and Co., but sometimes something needs to be said.