Home | Webstore
Latest News: OOTP Update 20.6 - OOTP 20 Available - FHM 6 Available

FHM 6 Available Now!

  

Go Back   OOTP Developments Forums > Out of the Park Baseball 19 > OOTP 19 - General Discussions

OOTP 19 - General Discussions Everything about the 2018 version of Out of the Park Baseball - officially licensed by MLB.com and the MLBPA.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-20-2019, 11:24 AM   #1
PSUColonel
Hall Of Famer
 
PSUColonel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,125
Blog Entries: 37
Thanks: 1,365
Thanked 2,136x in 1,218 posts
2018 Market Sizes

These were my 2018 market size recommendations for 2018. Just wondering what people think in terms of 2019? I haven't compiled a list yet, but I thought it might be interesting to see what changes (if any) people might think would be reflective of 2019. Something to do while we wait.


2018 Market Sizes:


11: Yankees

10: None

9: Dodgers, Cubs, Giants, Red Sox

8: Mets, Cardinals, Angels, Phillies

7: Nationals, Astros, Braves, Rangers

6: White Sox, Mariners, Blue Jays

5: Padres, Pirates, Tigers, Diamondbacks, Orioles

4: Twins, Rockies, Indians, Brewers, Athletics

3: Royals, Reds, Marlins, Rays
PSUColonel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2019, 12:19 PM   #2
DustyElbows
Minors (Double A)
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 138
Thanks: 44
Thanked 91x in 50 posts
Padres should be a 20 for sure
DustyElbows is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
waittilnextyear (02-20-2019)
Old 02-20-2019, 01:00 PM   #3
DanKreider
Minors (Single A)
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 69
Thanks: 26
Thanked 38x in 19 posts
Toronto is actually the third largest market in MLB. The city/region itself alone, not including rest of Canada (as they are only operating MLB team in the Country).
DanKreider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2019, 02:05 PM   #4
NoOne
Hall Of Famer
 
NoOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 6,701
Thanks: 715
Thanked 1,824x in 1,475 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanKreider View Post
Toronto is actually the third largest market in MLB. The city/region itself alone, not including rest of Canada (as they are only operating MLB team in the Country).
maybe relative to # of people, but i bet their revenues match up to whatever ootp defaults them at, or at least close-ish.

plus the canadiant dollar isn't as strong as the us dollar, and advertising revenue at the local level may not be the same either. lots of factors to normalize to pick out a market size...

it's not meant as a technical term from real life television industry. it's a summation of revenue potential for that region. #'s obviously strongly correlate.

maybe it is off... just show the RL income for the jays and work backward from there relative to ootp factors. (if that info is available)

------------------------------

OP -- I'd put LAD and NYY as teh same market size. the only reason they really differ much is because of timing of contracts... a newly signed tv deal is always better than one signed 5 years ago. if not mistaken, they both own their local network?

even that is argueable... it all looks as reasonable as it did before. these things won't change in 1 single year. if you think there's a team out there that's clearly growing their revenues and such beyond recent history, that'd be a reason to revise.

----------- tangental, but why i say that is included below.

regardless, both teams can afford more than the MLB 'prefers' their teams to spend. you've heard the murmors of the MLB telling LA it can't spend that much or that it has to contract it's saleries.... that's not because they can't afford it.

all the teams can afford more. just figure whatever that team is paying in payroll is basically it's revenue... if there is a 50/50 CBA split -- which is far from the truth due to generally accepted accounting practices (GAAP). legal ways to hide revenue abound.

if a team can afford 300M they are probably pocketting nearly that same amount too. (on average, less so for an overspending LA market, which teh MLB does not like, becuaes the other 29 owners prefer to make profit than overspend on players -- from their perspective, not my opinion on overspending)

2 of the funiest things i heard in college at a lecture... first was in a psychology class -- they said "psychology is not a science of labels" .. .and then 15 weeks of learningn the science of labels, BWAHAHAH. (not that it dosn't have merit... just not so much yet... you should think of the science of psychology as reaching the point of putting leeches on people for bloodletting -- giant chemical experiment on children since the 80's in america... bwahaha totally unethical behaviour)

second, was in an accounting class where the professor said with a straight face that the average profit a corporations makes is ~10%... and then the whole semester you learn how that "10%" is only a fraction of the real total. mathematically it may be true, relative to the definition of "profit margin", but it's a total lie. anyone repeating it is repeating nonsense.

scale is difficult to understand when dealing with somethign the size and scope of the MLB. they know this lack of knowledge is prevalent and they take advantage of such based on how they talk and present their side of things over and over again on anything similar in nature.

if we could see their cash flows report, that'd give a better understanding of just how much money they make per year and what their market size "should be" if they only made 10%, BWAHAHA 10% still gets me laughing when that former cpa said that... what a joke!

any business only creeping by with 10% margin should just change industries or sell (excludes small businesses, bu tlikely most of those too). you either are in a dying market or one with so much competition that you actually have to be decent and respectable to your customers with regard to pricing. those are things to avoid for a business. those are reasosn to sell or adapt.

that's not business.. their goal isn't to be well-liked or do the right thing, lol. anecdolal exceptions aside, this is the prevalent culture of business.

Last edited by NoOne; 02-20-2019 at 02:11 PM.
NoOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2019, 02:24 PM   #5
RchW
Hall Of Famer
 
RchW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The big smoke
Posts: 14,667
Thanks: 5,269
Thanked 5,184x in 3,169 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanKreider View Post
Toronto is actually the third largest market in MLB. The city/region itself alone, not including rest of Canada (as they are only operating MLB team in the Country).
It doesn't help. And it shows in the payroll. Being owned by Rogers they get nothing like the revenue other MLB teams get from TV rights.
__________________
Cheers

RichW

“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

So much for personality. Albert Belle, a complete nut job was never traded and was the highest paid player in the game, twice!

#Alternativefacts=lies
RchW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2019, 02:32 PM   #6
Le Grande Orange
Hall Of Famer
 
Le Grande Orange's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Crossing the Rubicon
Posts: 14,736
Thanks: 41
Thanked 4,409x in 2,484 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanKreider View Post
Toronto is actually the third largest market in MLB. The city/region itself alone, not including rest of Canada (as they are only operating MLB team in the Country).
As per the 2017-21 CBA, here is how MLB officially ranks its clubs in terms of market size and the score it assigns to each:

1. NYA, 235
1. NYN, 235
3. LAN, 178
3. ANA, 178
5. CHN, 124
5. CHA, 124
7, TOR, 119
8. WAS, 113
9. PHI, 111
10. OAK, 108
10. SFN, 108
12. BOS, 101
12. TEX, 101
14. ATL, 96
15. HOU, 93
16. SEA, 81
17. MIN, 76
18. DET, 74
19. ARI, 72
19. TBA, 72
21. BAL, 70
21. COL, 70
23. MIA, 69
24. CLE, 64
25. SDN, 60
26. SLN, 57
27. PIT, 56
28. KCA, 53
29. MIL, 52
30. CIN, 51

MLB uses the above market rankings and scores in its revenue sharing system. Clubs with a market score greater than 100 are ineligible to receive revenue sharing funds, with the exception of Oakland, which receives 75% of its allotted revenue sharing amount in 2017, 50% in 2018, 25% in 2019, and is fully ineligible in 2020 and 2021.
__________________
.
"You're sad that people are mean? Well, I'm sorry, the world isn't one big liberal arts campus."
— Reality, South Park

"You think you're so great with your maths and your science and your facts? What about feelings, huh?"
"Yeah. Feelings are more important that facts!"
— Penelope, Simon, Modern Educayshun
Le Grande Orange is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
Dr. P.R. Park III (02-20-2019)
Old 02-20-2019, 05:02 PM   #7
NoOne
Hall Of Famer
 
NoOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 6,701
Thanks: 715
Thanked 1,824x in 1,475 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RchW View Post
It doesn't help. And it shows in the payroll. Being owned by Rogers they get nothing like the revenue other MLB teams get from TV rights.
national revenue only, though. local contracts are per club

the owner may not spend... but the local revenue is mostly out of his control -- outside of typical team popularity volatility. that's all about the canadian dollar, going prices for tv ads in that region etc etc... more taxes too.

Last edited by NoOne; 02-20-2019 at 05:11 PM.
NoOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2019, 05:05 PM   #8
NoOne
Hall Of Famer
 
NoOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 6,701
Thanks: 715
Thanked 1,824x in 1,475 posts
legrande, that may be true but look at it...

NYM and NYA are equal markets? all the same city teams are equal in theory only and ignoring other factors. i agree with that quantitative assessment based on population and incomes, i assume, but that isn't the same as OotP's "Market Size". it's definitely a significant proportion of the math, i bet. (if not that very example you gave, somethign similar to how it was quantified for each city)

both LA and NY can spend well beyond what MLB will unofficially allow. (and likely other markets too, for that matter, but not all)

Last edited by NoOne; 02-20-2019 at 05:08 PM.
NoOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2019, 07:00 PM   #9
waittilnextyear
All Star Reserve
 
waittilnextyear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 765
Thanks: 968
Thanked 863x in 385 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSUColonel View Post
These were my 2018 market size recommendations for 2018. Just wondering what people think in terms of 2019? I haven't compiled a list yet, but I thought it might be interesting to see what changes (if any) people might think would be reflective of 2019. Something to do while we wait.


2018 Market Sizes:


11: Yankees

10: None

9: Dodgers, Cubs, Giants, Red Sox

8: Mets, Cardinals, Angels, Phillies

7: Nationals, Astros, Braves, Rangers

6: White Sox, Mariners, Blue Jays

5: Padres, Pirates, Tigers, Diamondbacks, Orioles

4: Twins, Rockies, Indians, Brewers, Athletics

3: Royals, Reds, Marlins, Rays
I'd do:

10 - NYA, LAN

9 - BOS, CHN

8 - SF, LAA, PHI, WAS

7 - NYN, STL, HOU, TOR, SEA

6 - SD, TEX, ATL, ARI, DET, BAL, CHA

5 - MIL, CLE, CIN, MIN, COL

4 - PIT, OAK, KC

3 - MIA, TB
waittilnextyear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2019, 03:18 PM   #10
PSUColonel
Hall Of Famer
 
PSUColonel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,125
Blog Entries: 37
Thanks: 1,365
Thanked 2,136x in 1,218 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by waittilnextyear View Post
I'd do:

10 - NYA, LAN

9 - BOS, CHN

8 - SF, LAA, PHI, WAS

7 - NYN, STL, HOU, TOR, SEA

6 - SD, TEX, ATL, ARI, DET, BAL, CHA

5 - MIL, CLE, CIN, MIN, COL

4 - PIT, OAK, KC

3 - MIA, TB


Very interesting...byt remember a very important part of the market sizes correlates to the average team revenue...and in order for the league financials to work correctly, it needs to be right around 170 million.

So when you are setting the market sizes, you have to take this into account. I don't know if you did or not..I can always test it though.
PSUColonel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2019, 03:26 PM   #11
PSUColonel
Hall Of Famer
 
PSUColonel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,125
Blog Entries: 37
Thanks: 1,365
Thanked 2,136x in 1,218 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by waittilnextyear View Post
I'd do:

10 - NYA, LAN

9 - BOS, CHN

8 - SF, LAA, PHI, WAS

7 - NYN, STL, HOU, TOR, SEA

6 - SD, TEX, ATL, ARI, DET, BAL, CHA

5 - MIL, CLE, CIN, MIN, COL

4 - PIT, OAK, KC

3 - MIA, TB

Do you feel Texas might be a little low at 6?
PSUColonel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2019, 03:28 PM   #12
PSUColonel
Hall Of Famer
 
PSUColonel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,125
Blog Entries: 37
Thanks: 1,365
Thanked 2,136x in 1,218 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by waittilnextyear View Post
I'd do:

10 - NYA, LAN

9 - BOS, CHN

8 - SF, LAA, PHI, WAS

7 - NYN, STL, HOU, TOR, SEA

6 - SD, TEX, ATL, ARI, DET, BAL, CHA

5 - MIL, CLE, CIN, MIN, COL

4 - PIT, OAK, KC

3 - MIA, TB

Ok...I tested, and it is pretty spot on I have to say. Avg team salary came out to 169.8 million...I have to say, I really like these strings too because it allows more teams to be financially healthier.

Last edited by PSUColonel; 02-21-2019 at 03:29 PM.
PSUColonel is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
waittilnextyear (02-21-2019)
Old 02-21-2019, 06:57 PM   #13
waittilnextyear
All Star Reserve
 
waittilnextyear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 765
Thanks: 968
Thanked 863x in 385 posts
No, I hadn't tested anything but I was just going by eyeballing and spitballing. Just wanted a nice tiering with some outliers and a robust middle class.

I could buy Texas as a little bit higher. You could argue a 5 is a 6 or a 6 is a 7 pretty easily for any of those teams in the middle.

Last edited by waittilnextyear; 02-21-2019 at 06:59 PM.
waittilnextyear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2019, 08:41 AM   #14
DaBears
Minors (Triple A)
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 277
Thanks: 74
Thanked 80x in 60 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by waittilnextyear View Post
I'd do:

10 - NYA, LAN

9 - BOS, CHN

8 - SF, LAA, PHI, WAS

7 - NYN, STL, HOU, TOR, SEA

6 - SD, TEX, ATL, ARI, DET, BAL, CHA

5 - MIL, CLE, CIN, MIN, COL

4 - PIT, OAK, KC

3 - MIA, TB
As discussed, it really depends on what you are trying to accomplish. I tend to agree with those who fall on the side that these have to be about more than just population, or it throws other parts of the game off.

One thing to consider is MLB (in real life) has become more stratified than it was a few years back. Essentially, BOS/NYY/LAA/WAS/CHC/LAD/SFG all spend pretty much right at the top of the limit for luxury tax (or just blow it away for a season like BOS did last year). Then you have teams like STL & TEX that spend in the $150-$170 million range most years. They aren’t going to get to the limit, but also are not cheap. There is a third tier such as ATL, COL, ARI, BAL that are not cheap at all but also are not going to go overboard. Finally, you have the state of Florida and the city of Oakland. The point is, are you trying to reflect population (which also must include regional/national interest to be fair - BOS has all of New England, STL & CHC huge swaths of the middle US) or have the game utilize those numbers to factor in a lot of other things. All that said, you might consider a system that only uses 10, 7, 5 & 3 or something like that and see how it plays out. You could have a few teams in the 6 and 8 section, or a couple in the 4 area. I’m just not sure it is now as evenly distributed across 3-10 or 3-11 as we thought in 2015-2017.

A side note, completely different than this discussion - the game is eventually going to need to do a better job of differentiating spending outside of payroll. Teams like BOS, LAD, etc. are pouring tens of millions of dollars into stuff that is not public. Player development, stats, DR, etc. For now, I am trying to wrap those things into the market size to a certain extent, but that was easier to do two years ago. In my mind, payroll is becoming far less important IRL (within reason - you can’t be MIA and compete with BOS) as teams like BOS spend a number that is starting to approach MIA’s payroll on development.

I have really enjoyed your threads on this over the last couple of years, so please keep at it.
DaBears is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
PSUColonel (02-22-2019)
Old 02-22-2019, 03:21 PM   #15
NoOne
Hall Of Famer
 
NoOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 6,701
Thanks: 715
Thanked 1,824x in 1,475 posts
with any set, you can adjust the baseline revenue value to reach a ~170-180M average.

figure they'll spend 20-30M on other expenses and some profit too. a ~180M average will give you a 125-135M average payroll most years. this will be a 25-35M max contract environement, give or take a bit.

extreme distributions could change that a bit, too. e.g. a parabolic or a right-skewed distribution would probably increase max contract costs vs a more normal distribution or left-skewed.

rough baselines to work with...

success/failure is definitely a force for change in market size over time. slowly and likely in an ebb and flow fashion that prevents giant swings from being common, but still exists for sure and possible.

within each market size is a range of revenues too, based on recent success -- really your fan interest rating 1-100, which reflect success.
NoOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
MBarrett (02-23-2019)
Old 02-22-2019, 11:02 PM   #16
jimmysthebestcop
All Star Reserve
 
jimmysthebestcop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 622
Thanks: 152
Thanked 296x in 180 posts
Some interesting reading that might help you out........

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeoza.../#3a837ebf3fc0
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/estimate...-30-mlb-teams/
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/local-tv...nt-get-better/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...teams-in-2010/

Last edited by jimmysthebestcop; 02-22-2019 at 11:14 PM.
jimmysthebestcop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2019, 11:47 AM   #17
PSUColonel
Hall Of Famer
 
PSUColonel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,125
Blog Entries: 37
Thanks: 1,365
Thanked 2,136x in 1,218 posts
Here is a revised list I just put together. Avg. Team income come out to 170.7 million a year. So it's 700k over the 170 mark...I don't know if that is a problem or not for finances (but I suspect it wouldn't be). I suppose I could always look to trim some fan loyalty here and there to get it right.



2019 Market Sizes


10: Yankees, Dodgers

9: Cubs, Giants, Red Sox

8: Mets, Cardinals, Angels, Phillies

7: Nationals, Astros, Braves, Rangers

6: White Sox, Mariners, Blue Jays, Padres, Tigers, Diamondbacks

5: Pirates, Orioles, Twins, Rockies, Indians, Brewers

4: Athletics, Royals, Reds

3: Marlins, Rays
PSUColonel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2019, 01:20 PM   #18
PSUColonel
Hall Of Famer
 
PSUColonel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,125
Blog Entries: 37
Thanks: 1,365
Thanked 2,136x in 1,218 posts
The are based on the Forbes list BTW...
PSUColonel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2019, 02:29 PM   #19
PSUColonel
Hall Of Famer
 
PSUColonel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,125
Blog Entries: 37
Thanks: 1,365
Thanked 2,136x in 1,218 posts
I might flip the Nationals and Cardinals though
PSUColonel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2019, 10:39 PM   #20
NoOne
Hall Of Famer
 
NoOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 6,701
Thanks: 715
Thanked 1,824x in 1,475 posts
you are golden, if that is what you want. the latter part being vastly more important.

a +/- 5-10M difference, preferably a positive one, isn't going to change much.

Last edited by NoOne; 02-23-2019 at 10:40 PM.
NoOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:50 PM.

 

Major League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of MLB Advanced Media, L.P. Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with the permission of Minor League Baseball. All rights reserved.

The Major League Baseball Players Association (www.MLBPLAYERS.com ) is the collective bargaining representative for all professional baseball players of the thirty Major League Baseball teams and serves as the exclusive group licensing agent for commercial and licensing activities involving active Major League baseball players. On behalf of its members, it operates the Players Choice licensing program and the Players Choice Awards, which benefit the needy through the Major League Baseball Players Trust, a charitable foundation established and run entirely by Major League baseball players. Follow: @MLB_Players; @MLBPAClubhouse; @MLBPlayersTrust

Out of the Park Baseball is a registered trademark of Out of the Park Developments GmbH & Co. KG

Google Play is a trademark of Google Inc.

Apple, iPhone, iPod touch and iPad are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.

COPYRIGHT © 2017 OUT OF THE PARK DEVELOPMENTS. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © 2018 Out of the Park Developments