Shoeless Joe

[One Great Matrix]

Shoeless Joe Jackson's 1920 peak card has an avoid K rating of 40 on the 20-80 scale.

Here are his ratings from sim mode 1920:

CONTACT 80
GAP 75
HR 60
EYE 60
AVOID K 75

And his PEAK card (listed as 1920):

CONTACT 75
GAP 75
HR 60
EYE 60
AVOID K 40

Jackson only struck out 14 times in 1920.

[Argonaut]

I feel like I should add my analysis to help OP out:

From what I can see, there are only 3 players from 1920 in the database: Shoeless Joe, Harry Hooper, and Babe Ruth.

In 1920, Shoeless Joe struck out 14 times in 649 appearances.
In 1920, Harry Hooper struck out 27 times in 634 appearances.
In 1920, Babe Ruth struck out 80 times in 616 appearances.

Shoeless Joe has an Avoid K of 35.
Harry Hooper has an Avoid K of 64.
Babe Ruth has an Avoid K of 35.

This doesn't make any sense and should be fixed. Joe's BABIP can be adjusted downward to compensate and have a similar Contact rating if need be.

IMO Shoeless Joe should have an Avoid K of at least 80.

[Matt Arnold]

There's nothing we can do about it for the current cards, but we'll certainly double-check the logic for next year. Of note, the Shoeless Joe card in question is not actually a 1920 card but a peak card, encompassing multiple years together, so there may be something in how that is put together that is affecting things. The 1920 year is simply that we had to pick one year to show an age for him.

[Argonaut]

To me it seems like a lot (or all?) of the PEAK cards take the place of a specific year. For instance, Babe Ruth has a PEAK card, but no 1927 card. I understand that the PEAK card uses 1927 as a base for the age, but then if what you say about PEAK cards is true -- it is not really based on the 1927 year (which obviously should have its own card).

Perhaps Shoeless Joe should have a 1919 or 1920 card, plus the PEAK card. Then he would have at least one card with good Avoid K ratings, which he excelled at. And I think the PEAK calculation needs some work. If it's not based on one year, shouldn't it encompass the best ratings from all of the players' years? I notice the Tony Gwynn PEAK card is crap at fielding, for example, which makes it worse in some ways compared to his All-Star Bronze & Silver cards.

[One Great Matrix]

Hi, Matt.

Why can't you do anything about it? Please?

Him and Cobb both, Cobb is not on my team but he was better at avoiding Ks than indicated in the game as well....I guess it's fair enough for this year if the logic was that you increased their power to compensate for deadball and so brought their avoid K down...Except why would Cobbs be slightly better than Jackson's?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...acksjo01.shtml

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...cobbty01.shtml

I'm playing a sim which I've always liked for its authentic feel in results & outcomes and a guy who struck out 233 times in his career has struck out 345 times in 1172 plate appearances. (Career 5693 PAs)

That's got to be an error, not a certain logic in translating... I don't mind if his power goes down, they become the effective Ichiro-types they were if it is corrected...

LIVE cards change based on evidence. I welcome every change for accuracy.

I figure since the game is based in statistical records, there is no need to translate further. Maybe you've made the ratings how they are with a different logic than that but, this really stood out to me. Imagine if Gwynn was striking out in almost 1 of every 3 times up.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by Argonaut

To me it seems like a lot (or all?) of the PEAK cards take the place of a specific year. For instance, Babe Ruth has a PEAK card, but no 1927 card. I understand that the PEAK card uses 1927 as a base for the age, but then if what you say about PEAK cards is true -- it is not really based on the 1927 year (which obviously should have its own card).

Perhaps Shoeless Joe should have a 1919 or 1920 card, plus the PEAK card. Then he would have at least one card with good Avoid K ratings, which he excelled at. And I think the PEAK calculation needs some work. If it's not based on one year, shouldn't it encompass the best ratings from all of the players' years? I notice the Tony Gwynn PEAK card is crap at fielding, for example, which makes it worse in some ways compared to his All-Star Bronze & Silver cards.

Peak cards, IIRC, are based on either a 5 or 3 year period I believe. As for Gwynn's defense, the Peak card references 1994 which I would guess is one of the years during the period they used, and if so, his defense was not what it used to be.

[Argonaut]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

Peak cards, IIRC, are based on either a 5 or 3 year period I believe. As for Gwynn's defense, the Peak card references 1994 which I would guess is one of the years during the period they used, and if so, his defense was not what it used to be.

OK, if you say that then the PEAK Shoeless Joe card still doesn't make sense. He has the same Avoid K rating as Babe Ruth, who struck out all the time. The Shoeless Joe card looks to be based on the latter part of his career, where he was a master of Avoid K's.

No matter how you slice it there is something wrong, either with PEAK cards or with Shoeless Joe's card in particular.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by Argonaut

OK, if you say that then the PEAK Shoeless Joe card still doesn't make sense. He has the same Avoid K rating as Babe Ruth, who struck out all the time. The Shoeless Joe card looks to be based on the latter part of his career, where he was a master of Avoid K's.

No matter how you slice it there is something wrong, either with PEAK cards or with Shoeless Joe's card in particular.

Not disagreeing with the thoughts on the Shoeless Joe rating, but I can understand why it should be changed in future PT versions and not PT20. As for the rating itself, it really doesn't bother me even though I've always liked him. There are ratings throughout that can be quibbled with, but I think the devs do a great job and what can be a difficult task. And not everyone will agree with them all.

[One Great Matrix]

I just think it's an error plain & simple and posted it in the error thread, although that thread was started in March so as maybe to finalize them before PT 2.0 started? Bought the game in late March, didn't come on forums until early April, this is the first rating I saw that was obviously off.

Jackson struck out 218 times total in the 9 seasons where he had 500 PAs or more.

It's crazy that players are approaching that in a single season now. In fact, what's the record?
223 by Mark Reynolds.
More in one season than in Jackson's 9 full seasons.

My bad for not checking the ratings before I picked him to be on my team. But still if I picked Ruth and saw that his HR power was peach, I'd post about it as well.

[One Great Matrix]

What I read was that they changed PEAK cards from the players best 4 years average in each main category to the players best year in each category (which seemed a little fantastic to some) but hey it's another card to use and not outside the player's capabilities, just him at his best in every category...these ratings might just be hitting & pitching base ratings, with "other" ratings being their average rating or something (like in the case of defense... They probably did not or could not include defense (in absolute best...statistics aren't nearly as detailed, as many stats as they do have for it, it's hard to put an accurate number on fielding.... and for fun there might be some "easter eggs" in the game.

I'd love to get an explanation on the logic behind Jackson's striking out all the time. If the PEAK card thing is true they went by the season he struck out 14 times in 650+ PAs (his best). And called it below average. ...Actually they would have went by 1919 where he struck out 10 times in 599 PAs. (1:60)

If it's found to be an error?...can you fix it? even in his rookie year, by deadball standards, he was slightly above average i think where he hit over .400...and I would think that average in deadball era should result in above average all-time in most cases.

Except for that one line of logic which is "where did he rank vs. his peers?" He was quite a power hitter in that regard. Not a slugger-style hitter, though. And only sluggers strike out this often. And it's not his rookie card.

Anyway, I've said enough. Hoping for a reply or a change next year as in 2030 in the PT 2.0 virtual baseball season.

Career AB/K

Top 5 All-Time
Willie Keeler 63.17 AB/K
Joe Sewell 62.56 AB/K
Lloyd Waner 44.92 AB/K
Joe Start 43.51 AB/K
Nellie Fox 42.74

Nap Lajoie 27.64 AB/K (#32)

Johnny Pesky 21.77 AB/K (#89)
Tony Gwynn 21.40 AB/K (#92)
Joe Jackson 21.38 AB/K (#93)
Eddie Collins 21.30 AB/K (#94)

Johnny Evers 20.95 AB/K (#98)

Gwynn last on New York Flyers in total K last year, Jackson 1st or 2nd (Mickey Mantle).
Thanks.