Discussion time Top 26 fighters

[zyberianwarrior]

http://newarena.com/boxing/ranked-th...-time//?amxt=0 Some I would question where they are at others not

[IceTea]

Originally Posted by zyberianwarrior

http://newarena.com/boxing/ranked-th...-time//?amxt=0 Some I would question where they are at others not

Hopkins at #25 ahead of Chavez was enough for me to look no further. Hopkins isn't a top 25 all-time fighter.

[Cap]

Was that top 25 in no particular order.....?

Cap

[IceTea]

I only saw #26 Chavez and #25 Hopkins and saw all I needed to see.

[popimorenito]

No Larry Holmes? No Larry Holmes in a Top 26 List of ALL TIME... smh...

[bob_bask]

As bad as it sounds I'm interested now. Can someone post up list please, as that site doesn't allow access from Europe...

[zyberianwarrior]

For you Bob

26. Julio César Chávez
25. Bernard Hopkins
24. Ezzard Charles
23. Manny Pacquiao
22. Joe Frazier (low?)
21. Marvin Hagler
20. George Foreman
19. Willie Pep (low at least in my unis)
18. Archie Moore
17. Mike Tyson (would be higher if King didn't get his claws into him)
16. Jack Dempsey
15. Roy Jones Jr.
14. Harry Greb
13. Jack Johnson
12. Benny Leonard
11. Sam Langford
10. Gene Tunney
9. Lennox Lewis (slightly high?)
8. Henry Armstrong
7. Roberto Duran
6. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
5. Rocky Marciano
4. Sugar Ray Leonard (i would flip 4 and 5)
3. Joe Louis
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
1. Muhammad Ali (DUH!)

[hamed2]

I always heard how great SR Robinson was/is but in his era, did he fight/beats guys on the level of Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Benetiz, Kalule?

[IceTea]

Hopkins isn't the third best middleweight of all-time. I doubt that he's in the top ten.

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by zyberianwarrior

For you Bob

26. Julio César Chávez
25. Bernard Hopkins
24. Ezzard Charles
23. Manny Pacquiao
22. Joe Frazier (low?)
21. Marvin Hagler
20. George Foreman
19. Willie Pep (low at least in my unis)
18. Archie Moore
17. Mike Tyson (would be higher if King didn't get his claws into him)
16. Jack Dempsey
15. Roy Jones Jr.
14. Harry Greb
13. Jack Johnson
12. Benny Leonard
11. Sam Langford
10. Gene Tunney
9. Lennox Lewis (slightly high?)
8. Henry Armstrong
7. Roberto Duran
6. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
5. Rocky Marciano
4. Sugar Ray Leonard (i would flip 4 and 5)
3. Joe Louis
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
1. Muhammad Ali (DUH!)

Any criteria behind list given as it's definitely unique.

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by hamed2

I always heard how great SR Robinson was/is but in his era, did he fight/beats guys on the level of Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Benetiz, Kalule?

That's a tough question.

With the exception of Gavilan I don't expect any of his opponents to be near the top of anyone's all-time weight class lists.

But that doesn't mean he didn't fight an impressive field of fighters.

[hamed2]

Originally Posted by bob_bask

That's a tough question.

With the exception of Gavilan I don't expect any of his opponents to be near the top of anyone's all-time weight class lists.

But that doesn't mean he didn't fight an impressive field of fighters.

Yeah, good point - I was just wondering what top athletes SRR fought? Tough guys sure but I'm not sure many were fast.

I could see a guy like Hearns out boxing & then really hurting tough but slow men.

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by hamed2

Yeah, good point - I was just wondering what top athletes SRR fought? Tough guys sure but I'm not sure many were fast.

I could see a guy like Hearns out boxing & then really hurting tough but slow men.

I don't have the tape but plenty got described as "fast" in the ring, be it movers or hand speed. Obviously there are levels and I don't believe Robinson ever came up against an opponent that matched his own.

Hearns body of work at WW I would say is not to level of Robinson's (Leonard better opponent but just over Gavilan.) As he moved up he met greater quality though.

[hamed2]

Originally Posted by bob_bask

I don't have the tape but plenty got described as "fast" in the ring, be it movers or hand speed. Obviously there are levels and I don't believe Robinson ever came up against an opponent that matched his own.

Hearns body of work at WW I would say is not to level of Robinson's (Leonard better opponent but just over Gavilan.) As he moved up he met greater quality though.

Right.

I brought up Hearns because @ WW, I doubt SRR faced a guy close to that level besides Kid, he was a beast when Leonard fought him that 1st time @ 147.

[Cap]

Re: Robinson. There's a reason this guy is in the top three of most lists of ATG. He had crazy skills and he dominated an era when there were thousands of fighters not hundreds. In his day guys were nowhere near as protected as they were/are in the modern era. You learned by fighting and you took some losses along the way. Losses, especially decision losses, didn't have the negative connotations they have now where you're pretty much a bum if you don't have an 0 in the loss column.

Besides Gavilan, Robinson fought the best of his day and he fought often. He fought guys who had 70 to 80 fights or more. That was commonplace. He beat stars of the era. Guys like Marty Servo, Jake LaMotta, Henry Armstrong, Tommy Bell, Robert Villemain, Bernie Docusen, Bobo Olson, Randy Turpin, etc. Robinson was the total package. No accident Ray Leonard took the name "Sugar Ray".

My biggest gripe with that list is having Joe Louis ranked No.3 instead of 1 or 2 where he belongs.

Cap

[hamed2]

Originally Posted by Cap

Besides Gavilan, Robinson fought the best of his day and he fought often. He fought guys who had 70 to 80 fights or more. That was commonplace. He beat stars of the era. Guys like Marty Servo, Jake LaMotta, Henry Armstrong, Tommy Bell, Robert Villemain, Bernie Docusen, Bobo Olson, Randy Turpin, etc. Robinson was the total package. No accident Ray Leonard took the name "Sugar Ray".


Cap

They did fight much more back then, but aside from Gavilan & Henry Armstrong, I could see Wilfred Benitez out boxing a lot of guys on that list. Duran would have been a handful too for those guys & no doubt LaMotta was tough but I could picture Hearns either out boxing or destroying him - like he did Duran in 2.

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by Cap

Re: Robinson. There's a reason this guy is in the top three of most lists of ATG. He had crazy skills and he dominated an era when there were thousands of fighters not hundreds.

Originally Posted by Cap

Besides Gavilan, Robinson fought the best of his day and he fought often. He fought guys who had 70 to 80 fights or more. That was commonplace. He beat stars of the era. Guys like Marty Servo, Jake LaMotta, Henry Armstrong, Tommy Bell, Robert Villemain, Bernie Docusen, Bobo Olson, Randy Turpin, etc.

I am Robinson's biggest fan, but I couple that with plenty of research on the man and the times.

He did fight the best of his era, very few match-up got away, but his outing against bon-a-fide challengers was at no more of an increase rate than the modern era.

On his way up, '41 - '42 he fought a top challenger every 2 to 3 months - but once he made it, by this time after the war, reality was he could go 4-6 months before facing a ranked opponent.

Originally Posted by Cap

My biggest gripe with that list is having Joe Louis ranked No.3 instead of 1 or 2 where he belongs.

Another huge Louis fan. Haven't tried doing a list for sometime. But I would always put him above Ali, probably not Robinson.

[hamed2]

Good stuff bob!


I think SRR is great but in some sense I wonder if he was almost like Wilt in the NBA, he was so much better than most/everyone else because he was ahead of his time?


I ran the numbers for Leonard & combining the records of: Benetiz, Duran, Kalule, Hearns & Hagler, they were a combined 240-3-3 when Ray beat them for an astounding 98.7 winning %.

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by hamed2

I think SRR is great but in some sense I wonder if he was almost like Wilt in the NBA, he was so much better than most/everyone else because he was ahead of his time?

For me, no. Robinson wasn't ahead of his time, I honesty don't think the sport has evolved from a technical pov since his times.

He was like Cap alluded to, the closest to the pinnacle of what a boxer should be that the sport has ever seen.

Originally Posted by hamed2

I ran the numbers for Leonard & combining the records of: Benetiz, Duran, Kalule, Hearns & Hagler, they were a combined 240-3-3 when Ray beat them for an astounding 98.7 winning %.

No doubt about it Ray Leonard was a great fighter.

[IceTea]

Ricardo Lopez wasn't on the list. He fought on a higher level than Hopkins.